Poor Satan, so misunderstood.

Interesting. In order for me to argue the point, I would be glorifying a personification of evil, which does not bode well for my motive in argument! Surely you have heard variations of this quote, however: Some folk believe that there is an actual spiritual war of sorts occurring all around and about us. This cannot be proven, however.Others believe that since we (humans) become the decisions that we make, we create our own Heaven and Hell.Personally, I believe that there is a spiritual dynamic that cannot be proven. I believe that there is definitely an all powerful Spirit that is, IMHO, fair and good.As to whether there is a personified evil spirit also, I wont declare as a belief. To do so would be to give credit to an unwelcome presence.Edited by Phat, : add quote

---

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

Yes, but without the belief in unseen forces Christianity becomes just another do-good philosophy.They can call me neurotic and delusional for believing in God and, perhaps Satan...but I have seen manifestations of both indirectly. (unsupported? Sure, why not? )I have seen people behave in such a vindicative, manipulative, and purposeful way that were there no actual devil, they themselves could assume the role.I have also seen ordinary people do extraordinary acts of selfless kindness that were not natural.I myself have experienced times where I was giving good advice and encouragement to someone and I was scarcely aware of having formed the words that I spoke to them. (not that I'm claiming supernatural status, but it was a wee bit unusual! )

I see your point in that both men are a belief.I talk with Jesus a lot in prayer. I read words attributed to Him. I have a belief that He is real and personal.Santa Claus never achieved that level of intimacy within my belief. Even as a kid, I think that deep down, I believed that Santa Claus may not be real. Perhaps I had a suspension of disbelief similar to what adults have when they watch a movie that they have watched before..... Edited by Phat, : added linkEdited by AdminPD, : Warning

---

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

How can an omnipotent, omniscient God be extended and expanded? Kinda seems illogical, if you ask me. Actually, humans have managed to mimic the last two items. Our science fiction writers are literally creators of universes. We can imagine but we cannot literally create out of matter. As for being objects of worship, go to any beauty pageant and observe the reactions of some of the audience members. Pop stars, movie stars, and other folks in our modern Cult(ure) of Personality are indeed objects of worship---rightly or wrongly.

I have never read Paradise Lost either, but its amazing how that same basic dogma has carried over from 1667! I don't really see the definite connection by reading the Bible alone....its always what was taught to me...by Pastors.

Hmmmm...lets ask Mr. Dictionary for a ruling on this one! How would we even be able to feel empathy for an angelic(fallen angelic/demonic) creature?One problem with even attempting to understand Satan is the lack of definable sources of information as to who and what he actually is.

---

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

On the one hand, it makes a bad case for Spiritual Impartation, but on the other hand it provides a great argument for Original Sin.

By definition, sin is separation from Gods will. Since we can't always be 100% certain of what the will of God actually is, and since our human nature is to think for ourselves anyway, we all sin.As for rebellion.....We can't honestly be accused of rebellion if we are doing the best that we can on a moment by moment basis.Guilt was never a part of Gods gameplan, IMB.

Would you say that our first actual choice (symbolically) was to choose freewill over obedience?

So in other words, GOD, being omnipotant and foreknowing everything (except perhaps limiting Himself to not foreknowing future human decisions) was not surprised in any way when Eve listened to that pesky snake with legs! Right?BTW...it wouldn't make any sense if God foreknew everything and yet was set to punish those who chose wrongly....would it?I mean....its too obvious that GOD understands the depths of human nature, having been the original manufacturer.

---

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

Literalists would believe that there are two spirits. Two images (or internalized character) and two imaginations.There is Gods imagination...which is His Spirit.Then there is humanities own vain imagination...or our freewill character as it were.There is the image of GOD, The Spirit of GOD...personified in Jesus CHrist.When we choose to allow God into our hearts, we are allowing His imagination...His Spirit...to become our vision.
There is also the image of the Beast...which has not yet personified itself in any humans only because of the restraining power of the Holy Spirit.(the life of Hitler may provide a counter-argument, as well as many convicted killers)Of course...critics may say that my argument itself is flawed, pointing out that the authors of the Bible were as imperfect and fallible as the rest of us! Which is why we have debates such as this one.Thats my wrap-up. Thanks for participating in the thread and giving your opinions, everyone. Lets each of us make one final thread and summerize our philosophy. Edited by Phat, : added feature

---

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson