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Author Topic:   Reaching the practical end of physics?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 68 (437352)
11-29-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
11-27-2007 9:33 PM


On the cusp of knowing nothing at all
In the realm of fundamental particles, and forces, physics has made a lot of gains within the last century. I'm wondering if physics is reaching an end point, especially with regard to particle physics.
I don't see any end in sight. Science is an obscurantist. Its tentative. Every time we think we know something, something else comes along to challenge those time-honored beliefs.
It was not long ago that Einstein claimed that light has a finite speed, and that nothing could usurp that constant. It is an incontrovertible fact, he might have said. Einstein stated that nothing could travel at a higher velocity than 186,000 mps. His theory of general relativity might be in jeopardy if it were incorrect.
Well, two experiments have demonstrated that it is entirely possible. A team at the NEC Institute of Princeton University sped light 300 times faster than the commonly accepted belief.
Similarly, a joint effort made by the Rowland Institute yielded equally impressive results. This team managed to bring light waves to a one mile per hour crawl and then stopped the beam entirely. They could literally capture, and re-release light, at their whim.
Perhaps also as impressive is the famed Slit Experiment you were asking about a few weeks ago. You might be inclined to agree.
I am wondering if the finding of smaller particles and what influences their behavior, is of any real use, especially given the great amount of energy needed to parse them out?
I don't think there is any reason to assume we've reached a capacity, but rather are possibly at the tip of the iceberg, where what we think we know is being challenged.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 11-27-2007 9:33 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by cavediver, posted 11-29-2007 7:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 17 by EighteenDelta, posted 11-29-2007 7:55 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 68 (437373)
11-29-2007 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by cavediver
11-29-2007 7:46 PM


Re: On the cusp of knowing nothing at all
Nem, just as a quick point of information before I go to bed: neither of those experiments have anything to do with demonstrating Einstein incorrect, nor do they in any way put Special or General Relativity in the slighest jeopardy. But of course that's boring, so the reporters have to jazz it up a bit - i.e. get it all totally wrong.
Why not though? If E=mc2 and c being a constant of light traveling in a vacuum, and either of these studies defy that principle, then isn't Einstein's calculations incorrect?
Admittedly I am very much the layman when it comes to the mathematical principles of physics. And there is certainly the possibility that I haven't the sophistication to understand lesser principles that are yet known to me, but this seems pretty straight forward, no?
Why wouldn't either of these experiments challenge Special Relativity?

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by cavediver, posted 11-29-2007 7:46 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by cavediver, posted 11-29-2007 8:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 23 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 11-30-2007 1:40 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 11-30-2007 7:51 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 68 (437377)
11-29-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by EighteenDelta
11-29-2007 7:55 PM


Re: On the cusp of knowing nothing at all
c=299,792,458 meters per second (1,079,252,848.8 km/h) in an empty vacuum, not in a chilled, super-vacuum injected sodium, nor in a "vapour of laser-irradiated atoms". Even glass will slow light by 2/3. Try again.
What difference is there, other than perhaps large quantities of sodium particles, than space?
Hmmm can't find anything about 1 mile per hour... they claim "a pokey 38 miles per hour" and nothing about stopping entirely or capture and "re-release at their whim."
That's because that article is basically an abstract.
"In 1999, Danish physicist Lene Vestergaard Hau led a team from Harvard University who succeeded in slowing a beam of light to about 17 metres per second and, in 2001, was able to momentarily stop a beam. She was able to achieve this by using a superfluid. Hau and her associates at Harvard University have since successfully transformed light into matter and back into light using Bose-Einstein condensates. Details of the experiment are discussed in an article in the journal Nature, 8 February 2007.
And WTF is 're-release'?
Light is released, then stopped, then re-released.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by EighteenDelta, posted 11-29-2007 7:55 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 68 (437517)
11-30-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by cavediver
11-29-2007 8:23 PM


Re: On the cusp of knowing nothing at all
Yes, if they defy that principle... but they don't. Neither experiment takes place in vacuum, and they depend upon their respective specialised media for the effects in question.
I thought the point of the endeavor was to in fact either slow or speed light within a vacuum, as in, they recreated a model that would resemble such conditions.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by cavediver, posted 11-29-2007 8:23 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Wounded King, posted 11-30-2007 12:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 27 by cavediver, posted 11-30-2007 12:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 68 (437541)
11-30-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Wounded King
11-30-2007 12:31 PM


Re: On the cusp of knowing nothing at all
What they created doesn't sound much like a vacuum to me.
There is theoretical support for the idea that c can be exceeded by light in the extra rarefied vacuum between plates exhibiting casimir effect behaviour.
Whatever the case the may be, I am simply in disagreement with H about the end of physics. Einstein challenged Newtons classical mechanisms. Galileo challenged Coperinicism. Darwin challenged Lamarck. The point is, somebody will always be there to challenge a paradigm.
I think it would be foolhardy to assume that we can sort of max out in the realm of physics. I mean, isn't the slit experiment just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to quantum physics?

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Wounded King, posted 11-30-2007 12:31 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2007 1:26 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2007 1:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 36 by fgarb, posted 12-01-2007 2:27 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 68 (437594)
11-30-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Silent H
11-30-2007 1:51 PM


Re: On the cusp of knowing nothing at all
Ahhhhh, you're not in disagreement. I wasn't stating we had reached the end (me with sandwich-board "end is nigh!"). I was asking a question to push answers.
Ahhhh, excellent Grasshopper. You are wise and learned in the ways of semantics I sense an ancient Chinese proverb coming my way.
I do wonder if there is a limit of human capability, or even inherent practical limits. There are still plenty of things for Physicists to look at and play with. As I stated earlier gravity is still relatively unknown, antimatter is simply unwieldly at this point in time (but who knows for later), and quantum effects are clearly exploitable.
I think in a general sort of way, we think we know so damn much... But we are dwarfed by this universe and its secrets. Hence, we know squat in the final analysis.
Where I was specifically pointing was within a section of physics... particle physics... at the search for smaller and smaller bits and how they operate.
Ah, thanks for the clarification because I seem to have missed that point. Well, what are we down to as the smallest speck of matter these days? Quarks? Neutrinos? Does it get any smaller? Maybe. Know way to know until we get there, I suppose.
With the great deal of energy, and the extremely short times they can exist... and they seem to fall back together into what we have to deal with on a daily basis, could we be hitting a practical wall on that end?
I'm so much interest in the size of the particle as I am the behavior of the particle. Quantum physics is some mind-bending madness. I am really curious to see what the future will hold.
Whether you got the speed of light thing right or not, I do appreciate the references. I hadn't heard of one of them and it was fascinating, even if not Einstein-breaking.
Well, as cavediver said, unless they were successful in reproducing a vacuum-like state, it doesn't challenge Special Relativity. Einstein's theory may end being as timeless as Boltzmann's or Newton's. But it still is groundbreaking, and I'm a little surprised so few people have heard of it. Speeding up light is impressive, but bringing light to a complete stop is an incredible feat.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2007 1:51 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2007 8:05 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 68 (437652)
11-30-2007 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Silent H
11-30-2007 8:05 PM


Re: On the cusp of knowing nothing at all
Heheheh... I would absolutely agree. Like there are some people who think they know of Gods and absolute morals. Just kidding!
To be serious I do agree that "I don't know" is the true state of human nature, and why I like science so much.
Probably because it seeks to answer the "why" aspects. Everyone wants to know why. We've known the principle of gravity since the dawn of time quite well. Everyone knew that what goes up, must come down. But we didn't exactly know why for a long time. Newton told us why, which is really what we wanted to know.
I realize my thread title was a bit hyperbolic, but I figured it would bring people in (P.T. Barnum at work).
Next to Barnum's hideous grotesquerie's, your hyperbolic thread title did seems like the second best way of getting people's attention.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2007 8:05 PM Silent H has not replied

  
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