God: Knowable or not Knowable?

That's not weird at all.The weird thing is that we have nothing to compare God to. We cannot say to someone "this is God". And have them say "yes, my God is exactly the same... see?". Since our only connection with God is internal to our own minds, there's no way to identify if anyone is conversing with the same God. There's not even a way to identify if the internal conversing is actually with God, or our own imagination.As I stated in my first post in this thread. The way we verify relationships is by observation, comparison, and likelyhood:We can observe how someone interacts with us.
We can observe how someone interacts with others.
We can compare these observations.
We can then form a likelyhood that this someone is deceiving everyone they talk to or not.We can observe how God interacts with us.
We cannot observe how God interacts with others.
We therefore cannot compare our observations.
We cannot even identify if God's simply a figment of our own imagination or not.Take your post, for example. There's no way for me to tell if you're lying or not about conversing with God. Absolutely no way.If someone else tells me about God, there's no way for me to know if the God you converse with and the God they converse with is the same God. Absolutely no way.Even if we could say that you're absolutely telling the truth, there's no way I can tell if you're suffering from a delusion or not. Absolutely no way.We can't know.And there's no chance I'm laying something as important as my ethics, soul, loved ones, and life on something I can't even identify.

An honest and commendable answer! I would respond to it by saying that a God who couldn't appreciate your honesty and passion for a belief in such a reality would be unworthy of worship, anyway.My unsupported assertion is that God finds us. We don't find God.Until He finds you, I wouldn't worry about whether or not He is knowable. I would simply live my life to the fullest and do the best that I could with the responsibilities, passions, loves, and dreams that I had.

A variation of this of course is, why would a such an expansive Creator be so involved as to extract eternal judgment on fallible piss ant creatures with a very limited view of reality.And even further why would this Creator require that some of these piss ants act has holy hit men to extract judgment on other underprivileged piss ants - does that make sense to you within this context?I understand this is an argument is base on incredulity but most of theology is based on one fallacy or another.

A synonym for determine is to characterize. We don't characterize God through exemplary behavior alone. God provided His character to us when He sent His Son to dwell among us. It is the communion with this mystery and the infusion of the character into us that makes us who we are.Another way to say this would be to say that we don't determine God and whether He exists and how. We are, rather, determined by God.And no, He is not small and petty and evil. (You are stuck on that warlord analogy) He chose everyone. Its our job (opportunity?) to accept the invitation of our determination!

Of course absolutely nothing in your post addressed the question that I posed. Is there some reason for that?Regardless, let me try to address what you wrote. Correct, we also characterize God by what we say. You create a god when you describe that god. What does that have to do with how we determine anything or actually anything in this thread? Huh?Just how does one commune with a mystery? Exactly what type of relationship does one have with a mystery? Yes, you do say that. But what does that mean or have to do with the topic? What steps are taken to determine what exactly god did? I'm sorry, shall we step through the whole thing again or should I just refer you back to one of the MANY times we have discussed it? How evil your god is is really not on topic here.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

OK, I'll accept that! Allow me to put you on the stand, for a moment. Earlier, I asked you if you believed in The Nicene Creed. You said: OK. An honest answer. Next question: Do you believe in The Athanasian Creed ?Now before we go on, I am well aware that you know far more church history and have read the Bible and understand it far better than I. That is not the issue here.(in this post) The issue is why you believe what you believe.The reason that I brought up both the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed is because these Creeds contradict each other in certain ways.While the Nicene Creed states that
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
(Referring to Jesus)The Athanasian Creed states that
He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

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He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

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For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.Why does one make more sense than the other? Oh, and before you get off the stand, I want to ask you about the Warlord...but lets answer this first:Why must Jesus be only human while on Earth? How does having two natures minimize the power of the story?

I wait to see how you will relate any of this to the topic, but simple research should tell you which creeds Episcopalians subscribe to. I have gone over that many, many times here at EvC. Since it is unrelated to the topic, either start a thread on it or take it to the GD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Does this mean He takes the heat when we screw up? 2000 years ago. They (God) is not, but the He that you describe is.

Well, I have a lot to learn. I am responsible for my actions on a moment by moment basis.Sometimes I get angry and show my selfishness or my inner angers and hangups.Other times I cheer someone up or encourage them.I strive to be the best I can be in communion with the Spirit I feelbut sometimes I am out of touch
I can only repent and try to do my best each moment No....but it means that we are given the opportunity to start over and are able to change tomorrow by changing today!

That's what I'm hoping for. Of course, it'll suck if I piss off an easily-offended God. But I'd still do it anyway, I like to fight for truth and righteousness, even if that's the little-guy That's the current plan
I don't have much emphasis on 'being found'. I tend to put my priorities on fixing/helping things I know are broken/wrong. Seems to me that's a much more efficient way for actually doing some good.

Hey all. I'm new here. I find the question interesting so if you don't mind I'll toss in my 2 cents, though I'm fairly certain my oppinion isn't worth half as much as I think it is.First of all I have to ask, why are you asking the question? Are you asking because you want to know Him? [and if so, by all means keep reading] Or are you asking because you are looking for a loophole to get out of needing to know Him? [what's the point, if you are searching for a loophole to justify your not knowing Him, it means you have no desire to know Him, and therefore reject any relationship] The root causae of a relationship is a desire to know the other party that is mutualy accepted by both parties. If one being desires to have a relationship with another, but the other rejects that relationship, then there can be no relationship. God desires to have a relationship with man, He is, in essence, obsessed with us. (in a Pure, Holy, and Godly way) He will not force us into a relationship we do not want, and in the end if we reject that relationship, He will give us what we have chosen, eternity seperated from His presence.You say that a meaningful relationship reqiures empathy, and while I don't nessarally disagree, I think the term I would have used is intimacy. (which reqiures empathy, as well as honesty, trust, humility, and self sacrifice. Intimacy is linked with feelings of closeness, safety, trust and transparency among partners in a collaborative relationship. For intimacy to be sustainable and nourishing it also requires trust, transparency and rituals of connection.) That's how I define a meaningful relationship. Do I think one can have a meaningful relationship with God, yes, provided they invest time into that relationship. I looked up the definition of empaty and it seems as if there are almost as many definitions of empathy as their are peaple to empathize with, but this one isn't bad."To perceive the internal frame of reference of another with accuracy and with the emotional components and meanings which pertain thereto as if one were the person, but without ever losing the "as if" condition. Thus, it means to sense the hurt or the pleasure of another as he senses it and to perceive the causes thereof as he perceives them, but without ever losing the recognition that it is as if I were hurt or pleased and so forth."You say that to empathize with God reqiures us to see the world the way God sees it, which regiures us to have an equal understanding of God; however, one has to have equal understanding to have empathy. This is a self repeating arguement.x+y=y+xYou then give two opposite answers to choose from as if one must be true and the other false. Personally I don't see why a decent portion of both can't make up for the total lack of one or the other. i.e. God gives us enough information about His person that we can obtain a fair amount of understanding. (lifting us up closer to His level) And where we fail at understanding Him on His level He became more like us, to fill in the gaps.x+y [its not either or, its both]Your right about point E. [We accept that there is, however, a God.] But points D. [To de-Godify God would be to make Him no longer God] and F. [Therefore we cannot have an understanding equal to God] are alittle offGod, being unique, (without equal) not only has the ability to be God the Father [mind], but also God the Son [body], and God the Spirit [soul]. He has three different states of being, all equally un-created, eternal, and omnipotent, three persons (not to be confused with person) yet one being. He exists in all three states, and yet is completly united as one being. This is called the Trinity. He can therefore become a Man and yet still be God. He can also instill in us His Spirit to counsel and comfort us.Now, as to the question: Is God Knowable? answer: Yes.Can we know and understand Him absolutly 100% completely?Not if we're still breathing.God the Father is seated on the throne, ensuring the laws are obayed and taking note of those who break them. God the Son went to prepare a place for us, that where He is there we may be also. It is the Spirit of God which inhabits the earth, seeking out the souls of men. That which is of the flesh cannot perceive the things of the spirit. Only though the spirit can one percieve, and then only bits and peices, because our sin gets in the way, and for no other reason. I probably left you with more questions than answers but that is part of the mistery of God, to always seek His face."Safe? Who said anything about safe? Of course He isn't safe. But He is good. He's the King, I tell you."Edited by imageinvisible, : Added text in qs box

Keep discussing, and have patience with those who don't share your beliefs. Welcome to EvC! Edited by Phat, : testing

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"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
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“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
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"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

Thanks for the greating. Your probably right about peaple not agreeing with me, they have that option. I look forward to many good debates.It's nothing personal, I think I gather what you mean when you say that "God understands them" (better than they understand themselves) but the opposite of belief is disbelief.Disbelief: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue.accourding to Marriam-WebsterLove the Simpsons quote!"I'm longing to see Him, even if I do feel frieghtened when it comes to the point."

Thanks for sharing, then. Any forum is only fun and interesting if people share.You seem to know a lot about God: ..but I think you're missing the main point here. You're already explaining this God you know.But how do you know all these things?Where did you learn them?Why can't it be different?

Thank you Stile for the greeting.How did you know that I know a lot about God? As simply as I can put it. There can be only One, or else there can be none. For, if there are many would that not cause great contention among the masses? What then is earth but the chess set of the gods, and us their pawns. Or perhaps, they gamble among each other to see who can gain the most followers. What point then is there in it? Each is as good as the other, no one greater and no one less. Which then do we give credit to, when we speak of creation? If there is only One, would He not make Himself knowable to those who seek to know Him? Should it not stand to reason that He would speak and deal with all of us equally. How He speaks to me and relates to me, would He treat you any differently? And if He is in me as He is in you, would He not see Himself and reveal it to you? Does He not call us to caution when He senses deceit.You say we cannot observe how He interacts with us, and with our neighbors and therefore we cannot compare observations. Yet when I said "This is God." you both recognized Him, and that I knew Him. Did you see the Invisible Image and recognize it when you saw it? You say 'we' cannot know, I say I can know, and you can know, and 'we' can see His Invisible Image in each other.You are what you do. God is what He does, and if you empathize with Him, you take on some of His characteristics. These characteristics can be seen by those who empathize with Him. Spend an hour with an Australian and see if you don't start to sound like one mate. (I love Australian's, they're great!) This does not mean that you should just blindly accept what anyone says. But if you empathize with Him then He has given you a Spirit of wise council, so that you will not be deceived, provided you heed His council. First; out of all of them, He's the only one people love to hate. Say the name of Jesus Christ (with reverence) in a public setting, and watch the reaction that it brings. It's quite ironic if you think about it. No other name, no other figurehead, no other religious icon, draws half the amount of hatred and loathing as the Son of God. People have sought for centuries to defame Him, to slander Him, to demean, or de-edify Him to the level of normal men. And yet He is called the Prince of Peace. He harmed no one, cursed no one. There's something to that. What Image do we see [though we never met Him] that makes us hate Him so. Second; He chose me, He knew me before the foundation of the earth, knew everything I would do, and yet He still chose me. Third; out of all the others, He was the only One who was willing to die for me. Forth; I have recognized His Image in others.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quotes. Press the peek button to see how I did it.