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Member (Idle past 5839 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Human rights, cultural diversity, and moral relativity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote:quote: Indeed. What does that have to do with bacterial infection in other parts of the body? The words you are looking for are, "Oops. My mistake. I didn't realize that tuberculosis could infect other parts of the body. I had incorrectly assumed it was only a lung infection." Yes, brennakimi, tuberculosis primarily infects the lungs. That's not the only place it can infect. Therefore, whence your insistence that you can't get tuberculosis of the penis?
quote: Because as an adult capable of using a computer, you are thus also capable of using a search engine. It never occurred to you to type "jama circumcision tuberculosis" into the search engine to look it up? I am not here to do your homework.
quote: Irrelevant. The fact that tuberculosis commonly presents as a lung infection has no bearing on the case. Since it is airborne, it can set up infection in any open wound. There's a reason why they test for tuberculosis infection by pricking your skin.
quote:quote: (*chuckle*) You got caught talking through your hat and somehow it's my fault. The rule, as it has always been, is that you need to do your homework first. Nobody is an expert on everything. Having a degree doesn't mean you know everything about a subject. Thus to discuss something with honesty and integrity, it means you have to do some work beyond spouting off from the comfort of your chair. We are not here to spoonfeed you everything. You don't have to be a published author on the subject, but it would help if you did some investigation of the subject first. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote: When your eternal soul is on the line, coercion is the nicest way of putting it.
quote: What a black-and-white view of the world you have. Some of us are capable of more varied reactions.
quote:quote: Yes. Do not confuse the existence of women in the US who have undergone FGM with FGM having been performed in the US. This has been dealt with previously. Despite the fact that it is a federal crime to perform FGM in the US, not a single prosecution has ever taken place. That's because it doesn't happen here. If there is a family here in the US who wants their daughter to be mutilated, they take her back to Africa to have it done. You were paying attention, yes? Remember all that whining about "literacy" you've been engaging in? Well, have you considered following your own advice?
quote:quote: Since you don't know how men masturbate, it would behoove you not to pretend as if you did. You've never engaged in physical activity that seemed fine at the time but when you were done you realized that you'd overdone it? What a sheltered life you must have lived.
quote:quote: Right. And the grand total of minutes you have spent engaged in this pasttime? Now, compare that to the total amount of time the man in question has engaged in it. Do you really think you have any idea what it's like? I'm doing my best to be discreet for I do not wish to hear you ridicule men's sex lives any more than you already have. But safe to say that it's probably true that at some point in his life, a man has spent more time in a single day masturbating himself than you have ever spent masturbating him. It isn't about severity. It's about duration.
quote: And being the proud owner of a penis, you would know this directly? Oh, yeah...that's right...you don't have one. Therefore, the only way you could possibly know anything about it is by other people telling you. Do people make a habit of telling you their masturbatory activities unbidden? Or do you make a habit of asking people about theirs? Must be some fun at parties either way.
quote:quote: A mastectomy of a cancerous breast isn't an attempt to remove the breast simply for the sake of removing the breast. If there were a way to get rid of the cancer without removing the breast, we'd do it (thus, various techniques like lumpectomy). You do understand the difference between medicine and mutilation, yes?
quote: Ah. One of the cruxes of the argument: Psychologists are all screwed up. OK.
quote:quote: You mean you didn't say that it's just a "tiny little bit of flesh"? Are you really going to make me go back into the history to find the link to your own words?
quote: Dead male. Dead female. If they're not equivalent, then it can only be because his life isn't as valuable as hers.
quote: Right. That's why when it comes to dead males, you can't be bothered. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote:quote: You mean if I don't get a job the State will imprison me? Fine me? Give me a stern talking to? Since when was it declared the case that a person has to get a job? I dare say that quite a lot of the wealthiest people in the world don't actually have jobs. Where are the consequences the State is imposing upon them for taking themselves out of the workforce?
quote: Prove it.
quote: Why? Does anybody seriously think that we don't have enough people?
quote: (*chuckle*) You were the one going on and on about "cosmetic" applications and now you're insisting that it's "mutilation"? Do you really not understand the difference between those words?
quote:quote: But the State has no claim on your body. Thirteenth Amendment:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Since when does the State have a say in whether or not I become a "productive member of society"?
quote: By this logic, sterilization should be outlawed. And yet, it is the most common form of birth control.
quote: Right. Because you know everything I've done in my life. Is it difficult reading other people's minds? Is it something you can turn on and off like a switch or do you have a constant stream of voices flooding your head? How was it you were able to pick out mine from all the other voices in your head?
quote: And coercion has no part to play in malpractice? While the laws against FGM make it clear that the consent of the parents is no defense, the case in general is that it is malpractice to coerce somebody into treatment.
quote: And in fantasy land, it might actually happen. But for those of us who live in the real world, your trivial corner cases are irrelevant. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote: Responsible people do their own homework and actually take the time and effort to learn about something before they spout off. And when they are given information about where to find the references, they actually get off their duffs and find them. This is not the place to educate you on the germ theory of disease. That you didn't know tuberculosis could infect the body somewhere other than the lungs indicates an extreme misunderstanding of bacterial action. This board is not the place for you to learn about it. You need to go away, do some reading, and come back. Did you go to college in this country? Weren't you required to take a TB test before matriculating? What did you think they were doing with that skin test? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut responds to me:
quote: The same way other social constructs exist. What are you getting at?
quote:quote: You've never heard of "house rules"? A common one is that all money collected from Chance and Community Chest cards is placed under Free Parking. Anybody who lands there gets to take whatever money happens to be there at the time. This house rule has become so popular that the official version of the game lists it as a variant. In other words, it's arbitrary. The people playing the game get to decide what rules they're going to play by and even making up some rules.
quote:quote: And yet, the mere existence of atheists proves that statement wrong.
quote: Incorrect. Social cooperation helps individuals reach reproductive maturity.
quote: And yet, you never hear of the atheist murder spree. Ergo, your conceptualization of atheism is necessarily wrong. Hint: The Golden Rule is not a divine edict. It can easily be developed through mundane means. Can you truly not think of a single reason why you might help a drowning person other than god told you to do so?
quote: And yet, the mere existence of atheists proves you wrong.
quote: You're getting close. The practical path involves social construction of behaviour. It allows a social species such as ourselves to get along with each other without having to continually be on the defensive.
quote: Because it works? Nah...that can't be it. It's gotta be god.
quote: Yes, it does. The morality is that my body is mine and you don't have any rights to it.
quote: It doesn't have to. If you want a metadiscussion of morality, that's another topic. You asked why it's immoral, not why it was decided that it was immoral.
quote: Um, since I said the exact opposite (morality is arbitrary and socially constructed), I fail to see why it would be relevant to try and explain why it is intrinsic. That would seemingly contradict the "arbitrary and socially constructed" premise.
quote: Except I don't. Ergo, your analysis fails completely. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me in multiple posts (trying to reduce clutter):
quote:quote: Then why did you say that the State has an interest in what I do with my body with regard to contributing to the economy, fool? Now that we have the ad hominem out of the way, perhaps you can get back to answering the question.
quote: Why? We specifically did away with slavery in this country. Therefore, the State has no such interest.
quote: I know, fool. You seem to love them ad hominems, don't you? Now that we have them out of the way, perhaps you can get back to answering the question.
quote: Which shows you didn't actually read it. Let's try again, shall we:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Where does it discuss who is carrying out the slavery? In fact, I see a very specific reference to State action. After all, who is the one who carries out the "punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted"? That's right...the State. And just what do you think "within the United States" means? If the Feds can engage in slavery, how does that jibe with the claim that it shall not exist?
quote: Lots of reasons. The big one is political, not economic. An educated populace is better able to participate in the functioning of the government. Since our government eventually owes its existence to the populace, it is in the State's interest to educate the populace.
quote:quote: No, it doesn't.
quote: Indeed. But the justification isn't a question of economic ability. Do you understand why the phrase "a danger to oneself or others" includes the reference to the self?
quote: Indeed. The problem is people like you who can't get past the sexism.
quote: And yet, you decided to declaim instead of pausing to consider. And if you didn't pause to consider about this, what else haven't you paused to consider about?
quote: That would be very bad as your life depends upon bacteria. They live in your gut and are a huge part of your immune system. Part of the way you keep harmful, food-borne pathogens out is because you have a thriving colony of bacteria currently living in your gut. If that colony is well-established, it is very difficult for new bacteria to establish a foothold. That doesn't make it impossible, of course, just difficult. If your doctor should prescribe antibiotics, it's a good idea to start eating yogurt with active cultures. The antibiotics will do a number on your intestinal flora and you will want to replace them (obviously, don't take the yogurt at the same time as the antibiotics as that will defeat the purpose.)
quote: Did you or did you not say:
i highly doubt that considering tuberculosis can spread through the air and does not require an open wound. Are you going to deny your own words?
quote: Oh, I see it perfectly. The difference is that I haven't fallen for the false dichotomy you have. No right is absolute. In general, I have a right to do with my body what I want. But also, I have a right to be free from assault. Sometimes, the person assaulting my body is myself. I agree that we need to be very careful when making that assessment, but it can be the case that I am a danger to myself.
quote: So? We let people overeat and smoke and do all sorts of things that result in disability. You can't think of a reason why there's a difference? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl writes:
quote: Why? Be specific. Why do we not let people chop their arms off? We consider BIID to be a mental illness and we stop people from having their limbs amputated. Why special pleading for the genitals? Brennakimi seems to think it has to do with economics. If we let people cut their limbs off, they won't be good worker bees for the State. Since not having genitals doesn't make you unable to push a button, there's no reason for the State to interfere. I think it has to do with the State's interest in keeping the population safe from assault...even if the person doing it is yourself. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut responds to me:
quote: The society that creates them. Just as all societal constructions do. They exist because we exist.
quote: Because the rules are the equivalent of morality: They are socially constructed mandates about behaviour. They aren't handed down from some supernatural authority but instead are created by humans.
quote: And yet, the mere existence of atheists proves that not to be so. Or are you saying atheists don't have morals? Or are you saying there are no "real" atheists? Or are you saying that atheists are using the morality of god but are just willfully denying where it comes from? If you ask an atheist, you'll handily get a foundational basis for morality and it won't contain any reference to god. Therefore, since morality can and does come from outside divine authority, your claim that it is a "desire" for it not being so is proven false by inspection.
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? Are you seriously claiming that you don't know what the word "reproductive" means?
quote: Because if we help each other, then we're not competing. That would seem to be obvious.
quote: Huh? If I help you and you help me and we both reach reproductive maturity, how is that not a benefit to both of us?
quote: You really can't think of a single reason why other than god wants you to? Yes, I know I'm being evasive. I really do have a reason why, but I am hoping that you can figure it out for yourself. This is something that you will be able to comprehend much more easily if you do the work required to come to the conclusion on your own rather than having somebody tell it to you.
quote: And yet, the mere existence of atheists proves that not to be so. Or are you saying atheists don't have morals? Or are you saying there are no "real" atheists? Or are you saying that atheists are using the morality of god but are just willfully denying where it comes from? If you ask an atheist, you'll handily get a foundational basis for morality and it won't contain any reference to god. Therefore, since morality can and does come from outside divine authority, your claim that it is a "desire" for it not being so is proven false by inspection.
quote: When was it decided that morality was "absolute"? Morality is arbitrary and socially constructed.
quote: And yet, the mere existence of atheists proves that not to be so.
quote: And yet, the mere existence of people who have no use for your god (and two-thirds of the world has no use for your god) proves that statement not to be so. The fact that you don't understand how they manage to do it doesn't mean they don't do it, NJ. It just means that they're capable of doing something you can't: Live life without your god.
quote: Why not? Why does functionality not explain why social constructs work toward that which is most functional? If a social construct doesn't work, doesn't help to achieve your goals, why on earth would anybody continue to follow it? Why wouldn't they work to develop a more functional construct?
quote: Incorrect. Arbitrary means there is no divine authority dictating what the choice should be. Socially constructed means that the choice did not come from on high but rather from the people who need to use it. In many cases, there are many functional responses to a given problem. Society will arbitrarily decide which one is the one they wish to follow.
quote: Huh? Societal constructs are intrinsic to the society. It is what defines a society. And the members of the society are the ones who determine what those constructs are. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote:quote: That isn't what I said. I asked why you think the State has an interest in what I, specifically, do with my body with regard to contributing to the economy. Of course the State has an interest in economic success.
quote: I know. That's my point. For the State to have an interest in the economy doesn't require them to institute slavery by forcing me to have a job. Remember your claim: The reason why we don't allow people to amputate perfectly functional limbs is because, and I quote: "it is in the state's interests to ensure that people are capable of contributing to the economy." Huh? Since when? Since when is it the State's concern if I get a job?
quote: When I was in school, we had to take civics. But the reason why we make students take math and English is because they're easier to teach when your goal is to take a standardized test. After all, in order to answer a question about government theory, you'll need to be able to read the question.
quote: Because I know the difference between "a vested interest in economic and monetary success" and "a vested interest in whether I, personally, am capable of getting a job." The government's interest is in regulating the economy on a large scale such as defining monetary policy, interest rates, regulating business practices, etc. Take a look at the Constitution and you see that Congress is given the power to establish patents and copyright specifically to allow people to take advantage of their work. What it doesn't have the right to do is declare how I shall go about providing for myself. While the government does have an interest in making sure its population doesn't starve ("promote the general welfare"), it doesn't have the right to tell me that my actions will not result in personal economic success.
quote: Have you not been paying attention? We've been talking about genital mutilation. Since we don't allow people to hack off perfectly functional limbs, why the special pleading for the genitals?
quote: Yes. And you, too. It's called "society." Again, morality is a societal construction. It exists because we exist. We are the ones who decide what we want.
quote: You're the one saying that a dead male isn't the same as a dead female. You're the one calling it a "tiny little bit of flesh."
quote: It's called "assault." And "medical malpractice."
quote: You're missing the point: How is jail going to help a person who is harming himself? The reason we put someone who is a danger to others in jail is to separate him from the people he might harm. How do you separate a person from himself?
quote: Um, where did I say "illegal"? Time to quote me exactly. I have been very careful not to say so. What I have been saying is that we don't let people amputate perfectly functional limbs. Does the word "strawman" mean anything you?
quote: Strange...since I've been the one quoting the law. Edited by Rrhain, : No reason given. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote: Yes, I know...and how long do you think it took for the doctor to become convinced that the patient had BIID? It, like sex reassignment surgery, is at the culmination of a long examination into the psyche of the person in order to find out why. So why the special pleading for genitals? I should point out: The incidences of surgeons actually going through it are so exceedingly rare that you cannot find a doctor in the West willing to do it. If you had continued reading your own source:
Smith was scheduled to perform further amputations of healthy limbs when the story broke in the media. Predictably, there was a public outcry, and Smith’s hospital instructed him to cease performing such operations. At present, no hospital offers healthy limb amputations. What usually happens is that the person damages his limb so much that the only solution is to amputate it. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote:quote: Haven't you been paying attention? I would say that one's genitalia are just as significant as ones limbs. We don't allow people to simply hack off their limbs and we certainly don't allow parents to do it to their children simply because they feel their god wants them to or because they think it's "hygienic" or "to make him look like daddy" or due to some issue of control. So why the special pleading for genitals? Why would anybody anywhere ever think this was a good idea? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote: I know. But there are limits. There comes a time when one becomes a danger to oneself. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote: And they don't really prosecute you for suicide, either, though it is technically illegal. You're asking for nonsense. Are you deliberately trying to be dense? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote: You really don't know? Why do we stop people from comitting suicide and yet not throw them in jail, even though it is illegal to commit suicide? Yes, there are legal ramifications involved. But you seem to think that those ramifications start and end with a prosecution. Might there be more to it than just the law? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote: Huh? If you attempt suicide, that is against the law. Why don't we prosecute those who attempt suicide? No, not the ones who succeed...the ones who fail. Why do we not prosecute those who try to kill themselves but fail?
quote: What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about why certain actions are considered something that society can decide to prevent...not whether or not they actually go ahead and do it.
quote: You mean like how tongue-splitting is illegal? You're missing the point: There is a line that is drawn. The question we are debating is where. Very simple question: Is it possible for a person to be a danger to himself? More difficult question: If so, how do we make that determination? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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