Poor Satan, so misunderstood.

Exactly. Why do they need a "real" Satan to understudy the role? What's wrong with being "just another" do-good philosophy?You haven't answered my question:Why attribute our own deeds to unseen forces?
All you've said is, "I wanna."

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

To really know God man must receive the life of God into his being. That was the significance of the other tree "the tree of life".God did not want a good man. He wanted a God-man. He wanted a man like His Son Jesus Christ - God and man mingled and united. That was the significance of the tree of life. It is good to learn what Scripture says. But it is also good to know what Scripture ALSO says.See the example in Matthew 4:5-7 We are pretty much told that he had a place of special authority among the other angelic beings anyway.His attack against Adam was a preemptive strike designed to save himself from execution. He knew that the new creature in God's creation could not possibly be good news for him and his rebellious hordes. After all, he [the Day Star] use to have a dominion. And now God said of this new creature man - "Let them have dominion ..."Satan knew this spelled doom for himself and preemptively attacked man to attach man to his Satanic rebellion.But the encompatent little snake is going to burn forever just the same. God cannot be stopped. We are pretty clearly told that he was something of the highest created being in God's govenment. After his rebellion God created man to have dominion instead of the rebel the Day Star, who became Satan. He's not hurt by our hate. He is hurt by our taking in God as our life and life supply as man was originally created to do.Our emotional hatred against Satan is not effective. Even less our unhealthy and morbid curiosity about him. What is effective against Satan is our being born of God, filled with Christ, and allowing Christ to live out from within us.That terrifies Satan. Aaaaah, Clever Clever !! As long as you love yourself you love Satan.If you deny yourself and let Christ live in you, that terrifies Satan.

quote:

---

As long as you love yourself you love Satan.

​

If you deny yourself and let Christ live in you, that terrifies Satan.

---

And if you stop being superstitious, Satan (and Christ) vanishes entirely.

Let me know when Christ vanishes.Will it hit me like a ton of bricks? Will it shock me like a stroke of lightening?Please let me know when this vanishing of Jesus comes crashing down on me in stark "realism".I've known Him for over thirty years now and He hasn't vanished yet. You're the expert I guess. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

quote:

---

Let me know when Christ vanishes.

---

He did for me, about 15 years ago, just like Santa Claus and the tooth fairy did about 30 years ago.

quote:

---

Will it hit me like a ton of bricks? Will it shock me like a stroke of lightening?

---

Probably not. Letting go of superstition usually happens gradually.

quote:

---

Please let me know when this vanishing of Jesus comes crashing down on me in stark "realism".

---

Oh, you'll eventually realize it, just like you eventually realized that Santa Claus never really existed, even though you believed He did when you were younger....that is, if you allow yourself to think rationally.At the very least, you will realize the difference between reality and faith.

quote:

---

I've known Him for over thirty years now and He hasn't vanished yet. You're the expert I guess.

---

Explain the difference between belief in Santa Claus and belief in Jesus. I've always wanted to know what it is. Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

I see your point in that both men are a belief.I talk with Jesus a lot in prayer. I read words attributed to Him. I have a belief that He is real and personal.Santa Claus never achieved that level of intimacy within my belief. Even as a kid, I think that deep down, I believed that Santa Claus may not be real. Perhaps I had a suspension of disbelief similar to what adults have when they watch a movie that they have watched before..... Edited by Phat, : added linkEdited by AdminPD, : Warning

---

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

If he is misunderstood then he should be a welcome presence.After all, he is here to teach us of God.Regards
DL

If God is truly in control of Satan then his appearance in the garden was sanctioned by God. No preemptive strike.One must then wonder why He would pit a powerful supernatural angel against an innocent girl who knew nothing of good and evil.To send her in the proper direction perhaps.Regards
DL

First of all I will admit that there are some things about Genesis 3 which I do not understand. Some questions are too difficult for me to answer. Understood?Having admitted that we can talk about it perhaps.Yes Satan appeared in the form of a serpent in the garden. And he is out of place. Adam was to guard the garden. This suggests to me that Adam should have known that the serpent was out of place.Especially when the serpent challenged them to disobey God it is obvious that the serpent is out of place. I think there should be universal agreement that Satan in the garden of evil was out of place and where he should not have been.Now, dealing with this situation of an out of place evil lying tempter in paradise was a part of Adam's mandate. It was to Adam that dominion was given over every creeping thing. That would include anyone subtly creeping into the garden to cause trouble. The serpent should have been under Adam's dominion. In this Adam failed.Notice the mandate given to the created man: Man is given dominion:1. Over the fish of the sea

​

2. Over the birds of heaven

​

3. Over the cattle

​

4. Over all the earth Number 4 "Over all the earth" should form the conclusion of the things that man is to have dominion over. You have a sense of finality when you arrive at "Over all the earth". That sums it all up. "All the earth" should include the earth and everything related to it.To our surprise God adds a 5th matter after "all the earth" 5. and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth This #5 is something added on, a necessary extra. I take this as a necessary addition. And it hints that the subtle serpent is in this 5th catagory. He is something somewhat out of place.At any rate Adam was to guard the garden from this additional "out of place" creep. He was a leftover from a previous regeme. He was deprived king. He was a king who had lost his dominion. He was a prince deprived of his former princedom. And he was lurking nearby waiting for an opportunity to destroy God's new arrangement of things.It is no wonder that Satan sought to go through the weaker vessel. I did not say the weak vessel. I said the weaker vessel.Often when a slick salesman comes to your home he will attempt to get a foot in the door (so to speak) through the wife first.Most people seem to miss that the really important tree of fruit in the garden was not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. but the tree of life. In the midst, in the middle of the garden was the tree of life. What was central was the tree of life.Now we know that once man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he was forbidden to eat of the tree of life (Gen.3:22-24). Adam's neutral position was no more. He moved from an innocent and neutral state to a state of eating the forbiddin tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the flaming sword and cherubim of glory then guarded the way forbidding man to eat of the tree of the life.Previously man was to gaurd the garden. Now man himself became a very part of the things against which the garden was to be guarded. Man had joined the opposition party.Now I figure that the converse should have occured if man had taken in the tree of life. If man had taken in the tree of life then the way to the other tree of the knowledge of good and evil would have been guarded. My opinion is that it would have been destroyed and the serpent with it. But I could be wrong about the tree part. Satan would have been destroyed by God in coordination with the new creature man.I am certain that had Adam taken in the tree of life that would have been sure destrouction for the creeping liar who was out of place in paradise. But it may be hard to see this without the rest of the Bible to emphasize it.Man, in coordination with God, destroys God's enemies.Adam's failure was in allowing the creeping slanderer, the lying serpent, to get the upper hand by taking in the forbidden fruit of ther tree of the knowledge of good and evil.However, God cannot be defeated in the accomplishing of His purpose. And the rest of the Bible is the story of His salvation to bring the highjacked man back to Hid divine and eternal plan.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

First...Adam was not presemt when the serpent "challenged." Only Eve. We also do not know if "Satan" should not have been there. This was God's Garden...this was His domain. God had just created the world and "The Fall" had not happened, yet. Adam and Eve were without sin. So Satan/Lucifer/The Devil corrupted God's creation right off the bat? The fall was not the fault of humans, but because of God's own fallen angel? And if God knew of it all, then the fault was not Eve's or of all humankind like we are told to believe, but of Satan and, therefore, God.So if Satan has so much more power than Jehovah, that he can control thousands of generations, then what the hell is Jehovah doing? Is he just biding his time, hoping that he makes a larger impact?Is Satan more powerful than God? Yeah, the temptations of the flesh are many, but you would think that an almighty God would have provisions that outstripped the fallen angel that He controlled, no?Of course not, then all would come in to His grace and then the church would have no power. If God forgave all, then His earthly judges would have no jurisdiction.If Satan has no power, then all would be God's...right? But if Satan has power, then, God does not have all power. And what kind of God is that?

---

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Consider that all of God's works are Perfect according to scripture.
This must mean that Satan also is Perfect for the role God gave Him.Job shows that God is in control of Satan at all times.God then must take responsibility for any and all evil on the earth.
Without this gift of evil we could not know God.
This would be a shame.Let us thank God for evil then and embrace any knowledge that it gives. This should be our position.Regards
DL

Well, there isn't. In the context of this discussion, I'll agree that the serpent character in Genesis played a similar role to the Satan character in Job. They were like Goldfinger and Dr. No.Satan's role was to test Job - at God's behest. The serpent's role was to test Adam - at God's behest. So he definitely wasn't "out of place". He was on his mark and on cue.Too bad some people misunderstand that.

---

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This is a fine point, and the right response to the question of satan. This is an agent, the same as what some refer to as angels who visited Abraham. Both were performing commands, positive and negative, and it is for the benefit of human response to it. The outcome too is subjective to humans.There is no such thing as a spiritual force acting counter, which ushered in premises of anti-Gd notions and born in sin. Only humans can perform an act which is contrary to laws, because of the free choice factor - and this choice only applies to the laws; there is no choice factor where a moral/ethical decision is not applicable. This is also embedded in the judiciary system: if a law is not mandated, there can be no conviction; if the accused did not have a choice to avoid a crime - it is termed an act of God or a natural disaster.

No, in challenging Eve he challenged humanity. The two were one. He came through the weaker vessel slyly.The New Testament says that Adam the man, was not deceived -"And Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been quite deceived, ..." (1 Tim. 2:14a)And the New Testament seems to place the greater responsibility on Adam the man -"For just as through the disobedience of ome man the many were constituted sinners ..." (Rom. 5:19a)It was clearly an attack not against the woman alone but against the couple as a single representative unit of humanity. I made a terrible typo. I think I called it the "garden of evil."Satan is the slanderer against God and man. You may philosophically muse whether or not Satan "should" have been or not. I think the answer is partly yes and partly no. It is paradox.Looking at the two ends of the Bible is very interesting. In Genesis you have the garden and man within told to guard it. At the end the the Bible the garden has become a city. There is the tree of life there. And there is a wall around the city with the tree of life in it.I will not go into a lot of interpretation of Revelation 21 and 22 at this time. But I briefly want to point out that the scene you have in the beginning of the divine revelation you have nearly the same thing reflected at the end.Satan is in the lake of fire being punished for eternity. And the tree of life is in the city with a wall around it to guard it. The wall is of the precious stones which symbolized transformed human beings. That is sinners who through God's salvation in Christ have been transformed into the image of Christ and built up together as a protective wall around God's interests on the earth.Satan belongs in the eternal trash can of the universe - the lake of fire. After he goes there forever, then maybe I'll sorry for him a little. But not before. IF you are not a Young Earther, which I am not, then you understand that the earth had been around for a long time. In a previous dispensation Satan had been a ruling authority over the earth. He rebelled and was judged to have lost that world. Then after some unspecified time God created a new creature man. Then He said "Let THEM have dominion" (my emphasis).Man was to replace the anointed Day Star Cherub as God's deputy authority in His creation. The deprived and jealous Satan was still hanging around. And he struck preemptively to save himself from this new creature.I think man was to be the executioner. God was the judge. Man, newly created, was to be the executioner.It could also be that God told this high creature "Lucifer" ( Latin ) that He had a plan to create this creature man. He may have outlined His plan to Lucifer in some detail before Lucifer rebelled and sought to derange God's eternal purposes.Either way, this little snake is dead set against God and man. We are glad that in Christ we have victory over him:"You are of God, little children; ... greater is He who is within you than he who is in the world " (See 1 John 3:4)Once again under the feet of the church in oneness Satan is crushed:"Now the God of peace will crush Satab under your feet shortly. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans 16:20)So God's purpose had not changed. He will crush Satan under the feet of His people. This is when His people thoroughly are identified with the Christ who indwells them. Christ in His redeemed and transformed people, will crush Satan under their feet. Man bears much responsibility in the Fall of Man. He does not bear the responsiblity for the rebellion and fall of Lucifer. And he doesn't bear responsibility fall the rebellion of the pre-Adamic world. He does, however, bear responsibility for the fall of that world which was placed under his (man's) dominion.Adam should have gone right away to eat of the Tree of Life. This tree represented God dispensing God into man to make man an "organic" union with God.Adam moved from his innocent and neutral position to one of guilt and joined the opposition party. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the fault. I examine what God has done to rectify the situation and learn to cooperate with that.I may not be able to explain why there has not been one unending peaceful paradise from eternity past. But I can point to the fact that history is moving in that direction.So while we may muse on why everything was not perfect from eternity, we can see that God's will is directing the creation in that direction in the future. In the mean time there are a few beings with free will, who have to be dealt with because of the results of their bad choices. Jehovah has defeated Satan by becomming a man and dying for our sins and resurrecting for our salvation. All this victory is available to us in the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit comes into us and we learn to live by Him, the little snake is defeated in area after area of our lives.Christ used the devil's own weopon to defeat him, that is death:"Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He [Christ] also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil" (Heb 2:14)Christ's death was a mighty defeat for Satan. Christ through death destroyed the devil. This destruction of the devil comes to us subjectively in the Holy Spirit. And as the Holy Spirit spreads within us this defeat of Satan is subjectively realized within man.Christ came and did destroy the works of the devil especially within them who believe and trust themselves to Jesus:"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8) .I'll be back latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

No, in challenging Eve he challenged humanity. The two were one.

---

The term 'adam' in ch one refers to a human [not man or woman], as you said, they were one ['Man and woman created he them']. Adam became a name [Pronoun] in chap 2. Technically, Eve was innocent: she was given this command second-hand, and incorrectly. Adam, when separated from Eve, told her not to touch the tree and she would die by doing so; this was not true, because the command only referred to eating, not touching, of the fruit. However, Adam said this with good intention - to further protect Eve. the serpent used this innocent statement to attack Eve; the serpent too was correct here. All were punished - yet this command is not one of the 613 commandments in the OT.All were punished - yet there was a blessing hidden therein, and the ushering of a future realm for humanity: the ushering of a life form with testings, experience and elevation - freedom of choice [applicable only with the OT laws/there is no freedom of choice outside this vicinity], and the Go Forward into a realm of postives and negatives throughout humanity, applicable for individual and nations, at every turn of every action. Elevation was the acquiring of a positive via the prevailing of a negative.

quote:

---

Satan is the slanderer against God and man. You may philosophically muse whether or not Satan "should" have been or not. I think the answer is partly yes and partly no. It is paradox.

---

I see the serpent as following a command of God, and that it is not possible to be a counter to God's Will. Else the universe would not subsist.

quote:

---

Looking at the two ends of the Bible is very interesting. In Genesis you have the garden and man within told to guard it. At the end the the Bible the garden has become a city. There is the tree of life there. And there is a wall around the city with the tree of life in it.

---

Yet this garden is not in this material realm: adam and eve were placed here, then sent down to this realm, and re-entry barred for life by angels with firey swords. Here, the serpent assumed an animal in the dust; there, he was a talking, upright-standing [else why say the serpent will now crawl?] spiirtual entity.

quote:

---

Satan is in the lake of fire being punished for eternity.

---

Is that not a waste of fuel, lol. Nothing is eternal in the universe. The law of forgiveness applies even with sins. Abraham took up this notion even for the most evil city of Sodom, with words which shook heaven and earth: WILL THE JUDGE OF ALL TAKE THE INNOCENT WITH THE GULTY - THIS EVIL BE FAR AWAY FROM YOU'. Thus was Abraham blessed. Moses too took up the notion of death, as unacceptable as man's final destiny, and was told, in reverse order: 'I TAKE LIFE - AND I GIVE LIFE'.

quote:

---

Man bears much responsibility in the Fall of Man. He does not bear the responsiblity for the rebellion and fall of Lucifer. And he doesn't bear responsibility fall the rebellion of the pre-Adamic world. He does, however, bear responsibility for the fall of that world which was placed under his (man's) dominion.

---

What about:'THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER - ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL PAY' - one of the OT laws, which even God cannot contradict - this is God's law, and God abides by His laws - based on the constant God is Truth?