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Author Topic:   Man in gods image... How ?
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 40 of 82 (437733)
12-01-2007 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by fred
11-30-2007 9:55 AM


Re:
quote:
It seems obvious that man being made in Gods image cannot refer to physical attributes, since God is spirit & man is flesh. It must then refer to spiritual, emotional & mental abilities.
I agree. Here, 'IN HIS OWN IMAGE' refers to 'speech', according to the sages of the OT. Speech is a God-like trait, and was used to create the universe: 'AND GOD *SAID* LET THERE BE LIGHT' - this 'said' refers to speech. This is not so far fetched, when we consider the universe is finite [it had a 'BEGINNING'/Gen], which means all its components were also finite and did not exist when the universe was created. There were no tools and elements, which makes speech, which represents a thought/will/action, the only factor. Everything humans have done - is due to speech.
IN HIS IMAGE cannot refer to souls, as all life forms possess souls, not can it relate to the mind or strength or speed - these are common to all life.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 41 of 82 (437734)
12-01-2007 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by iceage
11-30-2007 3:42 PM


Re: The LORD is a man of war
quote:
I have a difficulty understanding a vision of God that describes God like a super war lord. This is clearly a God made in man's image.
Grammar was introduced in the OT, as were the first alphabetical books. There are devices which must be used when understanding this most exacting and intergrated document. The one which applies to your question is this:
'HE SPEAKETH IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE' [OT]
That is also a later adapted factor for Grammar: if you talk to a child, you must speak in the level of the child. Subjective and relative are applicable factors here. It does not mean any human impersonations apply:
'GOD IS NOT LIKE MAN' [OT/Samuel]
The second commandment of the Ten clarifies it best: no comparison with anything within the universe. Thus we see the verse you refer to is an appropriate expressionism. The verse you refer to is stated by a Prophet to the people, as an expression they can be saved by God in a war.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by iceage, posted 11-30-2007 3:42 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by iceage, posted 12-01-2007 4:37 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 43 of 82 (437905)
12-01-2007 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by iceage
12-01-2007 4:37 PM


Re: The LORD is a man of war
The criteria for blasphemy is in the OT - not what you conclude with. That man of war is an expression appriopritae in its context, and that the OT is speaking trith about war being part of humanity and history, is not negatable. It does not mean you just pointed out some deficiency here, nor in any of the stats of this document being incorrect. I explained to you what in his image refers to - but you don't want to know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by iceage, posted 12-01-2007 4:37 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by iceage, posted 12-02-2007 3:36 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 45 of 82 (438153)
12-03-2007 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by iceage
12-02-2007 3:36 PM


Re: The LORD is a man of war
quote:
The expression "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." is not commensurate with creator of the universe. These are visions of god as a hero god, a war-lord God, in the manner of the Greek gods - gods made in our image.
Definitely not so. The variance with the greek/hellenism is pretty well illustrated in the OT laws, and in fact the basis for many wars with nations rejecting the premise of an invisibale, indescribable and unfathomable God. The aspect of 'POWER' is one of the given attributes of the creator, along with such paradigms as TRUTH, MERCY, FORGIVENESS, etc. In a war scenario, the usage of God's help is reasnable and not as per the greek.
In the dispensing of justice, for example, we can say God is the judge, without alligning this to actual impersonification. this factor is correctly an exressionism, denoted by its context of reference being within the realm of justice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by iceage, posted 12-02-2007 3:36 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by iceage, posted 12-03-2007 4:09 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 46 of 82 (438154)
12-03-2007 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by iceage
12-01-2007 4:37 PM


Re: The LORD is a man of war
quote:
In the Bible whenever the "spirit of the lord" came over Sampson what happened? Something or someone died.
The OT is the machinations of evolved primates don't confuse it with God - that is blasphemy.
Not when all deaths are attributed to God, and when there are also redeeming factors, such as being saved from slavery in Egypt. The samson story vouches for the negation of unjust death, than how you portrayed it.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 47 of 82 (438155)
12-03-2007 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by iceage
11-30-2007 4:01 PM


Re: The LORD is Man o' War
You have gone astray.
'IN HIS IMAGE' - refers to 'speech'. This is a creationist implement, whereby genesis says there were no tools and elements when the universe was created, and it emerged via speech, namely with the utterence of a word/will/command/thought. That 'THE LORD *SAID* LET THERE BE LIGHT' refers to speech ['SAID'].
All of mankind's works are derived via speech - a Gdlike trait.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 48 of 82 (438156)
12-03-2007 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by iceage
11-30-2007 3:42 PM


Re: The LORD is a man of war
quote:
I have a difficulty understanding a vision of God that describes God like a super war lord. This is clearly a God made in man's image.
Even when its context is clearly embedded in the describing of an actual war situation!?
Lol - grammar was introduced in the OT, and there is no other example of an expressionism than that verse - and no other reading of it. It was stated by a cherished writer named Isiah, who's writings are emulated and utilised by the greatest of poets and writers.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 51 of 82 (438231)
12-03-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iceage
12-03-2007 4:09 AM


Re: The LORD is a man of war
quote:
iaj writes:
The variance with the greek/hellenism is pretty well illustrated in the OT laws, and in fact the basis for many wars with nations rejecting the premise of an invisibale, indescribable and unfathomable God.
This sentence is poorly constructed and I cannot understand what you are trying to say.
You see commonality of the OT with hellenism and its mythological dieties; I see the differences. The OT is based on the strickest form of Monotheism possible, while hellenism is based on blatant polytheism. If you read the criteria for monotheism, a premise introduced in the OT, no form of images are allowed for worship; here, the only exceptions are abstract factors, such as prayer, expressionism and metaphors - which are not graven images. I find your views selective and ommisive, resulting in the antithesis of your conclusion should be.
quote:
iaj writes:
The aspect of 'POWER' is one of the given attributes of the creator...
A supernova is POWER meddling in the tribal affairs of men is trifling.
Also in the affairs of virus and insects. This is the meaning of omnipotent.
quote:
iaj writes:
...along with such paradigms as TRUTH, MERCY, FORGIVENESS, etc.
The OT defies this description...
I don't see humanity surviving solely by its own deeds. We are propped up, despite being less than adequate, and in the midst of anything minute going wrong resulting in our demise. there is both forces in this realm, positive and negative, and it is very difficult to know which is which - we are not privy to the big picture.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ezekiel 9:5-7
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No mercy and kill them all! The fact that this sounds like the philosophy of Al-Qaeda is no coincidence.
Normal, garden variety stuff 3000 years ago; this was a supersticious period, and in certain kinds of wars, no prisoners were taken. It is still better than the attrocities seen the last 300 years. The OT depicts truth - the reason it is believed. These forms of wars occured even a few 100 years ago - people were massacred upto 700 million when they refused enforced conversions. It is a humanity factor.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah 51:20-26 "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A trash talking god? Just like WWF. Now why would the creator of the universe need holy hitmen to carry out his destruction? Is God incapable of doing his destruction?
And one of the more ludicrous rules by the creator of Galaxies...
This too is human improvisation. There are equivalent chants today on the net. It has nothing to do with your conclusion, and most probably it means something other than your views.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Deuteronomy 25:11-12) If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let the boys play eh? and show her no pity. These are not the thoughts of God - but men.
Do you know what is meant by 'reaches out and seizes him by his private parts'? These were different times, and this was a very grevious action then. The penalty today for any wrong doing is a variable, according to each generation's times - but the penalty must be appropriate to the crime. This week, a death sentence is demanded for a teacher who inadvertantly named a doll as Mohammed - so these are sensitivities of the ages, and only seen with surprise today. One can say, these are required evolutionary phases for humanity.
quote:
iaj writes:
In the dispensing of justice, for example, we can say God is the judge, without alligning this to actual impersonification this factor is correctly an exressionism, denoted by its context of reference being within the realm of justice.
This sentence just does not make any sense.
I'll translate. It refers to another example of an expressionism. By saying God is the 'judge', in the context of judgement - it cannot mean an actual judge with a silver toppee in a courtroom. The same applies to the notion of a man of war expressionism.: they are clearly contextual.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 53 of 82 (438845)
12-06-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
12-03-2007 2:23 PM


Re: The jabberwockian mind of Phat
It can be validated by a correct comprehension of the text. Grammar was introduced here: this says the most coherent path be taken. In this instant it is even made simpler, because there does not appear any other explanations to consider when taking other factors in the same source into consideration. Eg: 'NO MAN SHALL SEE ME AND LIVE'; 'GOD IS NOT LIKE MAN'; 'NO COMPARISON OF GOD WITH ANYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE'; ETC.
If you miss the signs, you end up driving in the wrong lane. Its got nothing to do with belief - its the texts!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 2:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 12-06-2007 4:17 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 56 of 82 (439001)
12-07-2007 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by bluescat48
12-06-2007 1:35 PM


Re: The LORD is a man of war
Because Israel was given a direct, open and firsthand Revelation at Sinai - very little excuses are available for blatant, open and sustained sins ['And I will punish you sevenhold'; 'And I will set the hearts and the minds of the nations against you'; etc]. Much is at stake when commandments are desecrated in this regard, in Jerusalem, while the Temple stood, and one must consider the crimes commited in this instant, and what it means when it is not responded to in kind. We know the OT is constant - Sodom was destroyed entirely, making this not an unusual situation; an entire region was destroyed by a flood [Noah]; Moses was forbidden from entering the Promised Land; etc.
There is a difference is commiting a crime before a friend, kin, king - and when the first temple stood - which manifested open revelation [as opposed the 2nd temple]. The severity decreases when further from such a spiritual arena. Justice here is a terrifying paradign ['But my justice shall not suffer'], and thankfully, justice is listed as the last of the 13 Attributes, coming after the abuse of mercy, forgiveness, kindness, truth, etc. If the kitchen is too hot - leave the room: 'KNOW BEFORE WHOM YOU YOU ARE STANDING'.
> 4 And the LORD said unto him: 'Go through the midst of the city, through> the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that> sigh and that cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst> thereof.'
That is, put a sign on the righteous, who were sorrowful for the sinsof the city! Similarly, God put a sign on Cain TO PROTECT him (unlikethe common misunderstanding there). Those marked with God's sign aremarked for protection.
> 5 And to the others He said in my hearing: 'Go ye through the> city after him, and smite; let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity;
That the unrighteous should be slaughtered.
6> slay utterly the old man, the young man and the maiden, and little> children and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark;
Don't slay the marked as righteous, but all the unrighteous of allages.
and> begin at My sanctuary.'
Where idol worship had defiled the holy Temple of God.
> Then they began at the elders that were before the> house.
These were the corrupt leaders.
7 And He said unto them: 'Defile the house, and fill the courts>
with the slain; go ye forth.'
And they went forth, and smote in the city. The house of Idols, which should have been the house of God, was to beturned into a house full of dead bodies, unworthy of even idol worship.
> 8 And it came to pass, while they were smiting, and I was left, that I> fell upon my face, and cried, and said: 'Ah Lord GOD! wilt Thou destroy> all the residue of Israel in Thy pouring out of Thy fury upon Jerusalem?'
The prophet fears that few if any will be left under such conditions.
> 9 Then said He unto me: 'The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is> exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of> wresting of judgment; for they say: The LORD hath forsaken the land, and> the LORD seeth not. 10 And as for Me also, Mine eye shall not spare,> neither will I have pity, but I will bring their way upon their head.'
11 God commands that it be done all the same!
> And, behold, the man clothed in linen, who had the inkhorn on his side,> reported, saying: 'I have done according to all that Thou hast commanded> me.' {P}
It was done.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 57 of 82 (439005)
12-07-2007 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
12-06-2007 4:17 PM


Re: The jabberwockian mind of Phat
quote:
IamJoseph writes:
Grammar was introduced here: this says the most coherent path be taken.
---------------
There's nothing coherent in that line. Do you type your posts with an axe?
Please try to write one sentence in plain English.
Those are the rules of Grammar. If you check, this faculty reaches its epitomy here, namely in the OT texts. The OT writings are contextual, which must be precedent of chronology in correct grammar. IOW, first finish the point being made, then qualify with extra factors. Second, that the interpretation by the reader must take the coherent path, not an incoherent path: and the coherent path is affirmed by other usages elsewhere - the writings are all intergrated, meaning the contradiction of another sector is NOT the correct path.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 12-06-2007 4:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 11:35 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 59 of 82 (439135)
12-07-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
12-07-2007 11:35 AM


quote:
Clearly, you're well beyond the epitome.
The topic is "Man in God's image". Are you trying to demonstrate that God is a blithering idiot?
No. Just to re-state, where you have more than one possible meaning, the most coherent one should be taken. Specially so, when it is affirmed by the text elsewhere which is the correct meaning: there are numerous laws in the OT which clearly dispell any notion of divine personification. Grammar is logic based, and the OT is using valid forms of expressionism, of the most contextual kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 1:55 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 61 of 82 (439154)
12-07-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
12-07-2007 1:55 PM


Your kidding, no!
quote:
EX/20. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. 3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; 5 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments. {S} 6 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. {P}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 1:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 2:57 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 63 of 82 (439203)
12-07-2007 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
12-07-2007 2:57 PM


No two commandments mean the same thing; nothing is superflous here. However, there are other commandments and statutes which are 'in parallel' with that, such as 'no man shall see me and live'; 'I am the Lrd - there is no other'; 'Gd is one'- OT;'Gd is not like man [Samuel]; etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 2:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 8:01 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 65 of 82 (439286)
12-08-2007 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
12-07-2007 8:01 PM


quote:
Give citations and {preferably} full quotes.
And try to find something about man in God's image.
There are numerous portions dealing with man and God's image. In Genesis ch 1 it applies to speech. Elsewhere it is contextual. The 2nd C from Sinai reflects all these too:
quote:
6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, can proclaim--let him declare it, and set it in order for Me--since I appointed the ancient people? And the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have I not announced unto thee of old, and declared it? And ye are My witnesses. Is there a God beside Me? Yea, there is no Rock; I know not any. 9 They that fashion a graven image are all of them vanity, and their delectable things shall not profit; and their own witnesses see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. 10 Who hath fashioned a god, or molten an image that is profitable for nothing?
quote:
EZEK 28/ 2 'Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre: Thus saith the Lord GOD: because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said: I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the heart of the seas; yet thou art man, and not God, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God--
quote:
1 SAM 15/ 29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man, that He should repent.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 8:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 12-08-2007 10:24 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
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