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Author Topic:   Young Know-it-alls
Stile
Member
Posts: 3438
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 61 of 72 (435201)
11-19-2007 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
11-19-2007 5:59 PM


Blissfully Agreed
Yes, maybe I am just using the wrong words.

I don't know, "Bliss is empty" doesn't sit perfectly well with me. But at this point, I don't really disagree at all. Thanks for your input :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:59 PM ringo has not yet responded

    
Dubious Drewski
Member (Idle past 641 days)
Posts: 73
From: Alberta
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 62 of 72 (435254)
11-20-2007 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Stile
11-19-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
What a fascinating direction this ol' thread has taken!

Now Stile, I would like to make clear the fact that I do agree with you that bliss/happiness/contentment based on truth is far more valuable than any other kind, of course. I don't think anyone in their right mind would disagree. What I'm trying to point out is that it is easier for an ignorant/deluded person to be happy. Real happiness based on truth is rarer, and is the tougher of the two paths.

What is commonly heard from the mouths of religious folk after some tragedy, like a death? "It was God's plan." and "He's happier now where he is". Can you see what I mean?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 4:50 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Stile, posted 11-20-2007 12:03 PM Dubious Drewski has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 63 of 72 (435288)
11-20-2007 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dubious Drewski
02-03-2007 7:13 PM


Have any of you been in this position? Can you remember a time when you were so headstrong about your beliefs and how it affected your interaction with the world? Should I worry? What can I expect in the future?

Yes I do remember a time. I now realize that I am too ignorant to realize how it affected my interaction with the world.

You can expect in the future one of many possibilities, including coming to a realization one day that you were mostly wrong about everything in some sort of way, and you really don't have anything "figured out."

Worry?, not unless you are a bad person. Live life and enjoy, be kind to those around you, and help people when you can. No regrets.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dubious Drewski, posted 02-03-2007 7:13 PM Dubious Drewski has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3438
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 64 of 72 (435328)
11-20-2007 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dubious Drewski
11-20-2007 1:48 AM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Dubious Drewski writes:

What I'm trying to point out is that it is easier for an ignorant/deluded person to be happy. Real happiness based on truth is rarer, and is the tougher of the two paths.

Sounds good to me :)

Although I think the rare part simply has to do more with a pessimistic/optimistic attitude rather than happiness available to the situation. "Happiness available to the situation"... um... I hope that makes a bit of sense, I don't really know how to explain that more, and, well, I don't really feel like it either :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-20-2007 1:48 AM Dubious Drewski has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3438
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 65 of 72 (435573)
11-21-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taz
11-19-2007 4:46 PM


Thanks
Taz writes:

Stile, did you stop to think about what I said or is winning an argument more important than thinking?

I've never cared about winning or losing an arguement, only about simply being understood.

I'll take your silence to my last message to mean you understand what I was talking about now, thanks for your input.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 4:46 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Taz, posted 11-29-2007 12:05 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1402 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 66 of 72 (437156)
11-29-2007 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Stile
11-21-2007 4:44 PM


Re: Thanks
Well, I understood you from the beginning. My silence just mean I agreed to disagree.


Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Stile, posted 11-21-2007 4:44 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 67 of 72 (437331)
11-29-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Stile
11-19-2007 9:04 AM


Progressing towards nothing
Personally, I find it depressing that someone would want to live a life where their thoughts were wasted on meaningless blissful ignorance.

There is an philosophy about that. Some people, likely even yourself, argue that things like religion impede "progress." One has to ask, though, what this supposed progress is? In order to "progress" doesn't one have to have in mind an achievement to be accomplishing? If we are perpetually striving towards something, what is that thing?

In the final analysis, does it even matter if we plateau in our knowledge, in our evolution, in our advancement? If there is no purpose to this universe other than the one we assign it, what are we seeking to gain? Isn't it vanity if there is no purpose?

If you have knowledge that something was a facade... isn't it good news that you now know you no longer should be wasting any time on it?

This goes back to my previous statement. If happiness and contentment are major motivators in our lives, then wouldn't the fulfillment of that objective, irrespective of how it comes to pass, be the most important goal?

If one is blissfully ignorant, you would not know that you are ignorant. So what does it matter? Why not opt to be the cat if that's the case?

Now, I realize that you are saying this only in lieu of us becoming aware of a facade that we were living. You would prefer knowing the truth, presumably, even if the truth hurt more than the fictional lives we once were under.

This begs the question: What is it about Truth that makes us yearn for it? Why is it so universally ingrained within us to strive for truth if the universe does not, itself, have any meaning? You obviously can't say that we give it meaning if that meaning is so universal and innate. It bespeaks of something grander than that, does it not?

Weird. For me, knowing better means I no longer have to waste time on what is actually worthless.[/qs]

Again, that presupposes a goal. What is the goal?

(Just to clarify, I think many people feel this way. Its certainly not a strange thing. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here so we can uncover a few motivations).

I can now spend my time on things that have real meaning.

What do you suppose has real meaning?

It was a waste of time to be worrying/thinking about it in the first place.

I think the point was that if he was more ignorant than he is now, he wouldn't have been worrying about it at all. Does the fly worry about when it is going to eat? Does it have the intellect to feel sorry for itself when it is hungry? Does it calculate its moves, or does it rely on baser instincts?

I think the point of Drewski is that this life we live under the knowledge of the tree of good and evil (pardon the religious expression) we are cursed by that knowledge. I think he is saying that while knowledge can be a blessing, it can also be a curse.


“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 9:04 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Stile, posted 11-30-2007 8:48 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3438
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 68 of 72 (437465)
11-30-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hyroglyphx
11-29-2007 5:59 PM


Re: Progressing towards better
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

If one is blissfully ignorant, you would not know that you are ignorant. So what does it matter? Why not opt to be the cat if that's the case?

Ignorance is damaging. Those who are unaware of dangers tend not to live very long.

But I agree with you, if "being happy" is your only goal. That is, living is irrelevant... other people are irrelevant... this universe is irrelevant... I see no reason why blissful ignorance wouldn't be the path you'd want.

My point was that blissful ignorance isn't any better than blissful knowledge. I've admitted many times that they're at least equal.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be a cat because simple ignorant bliss is not a goal of mine. Happiness, truth, pursuit of life, curiosity... all these things drive me.

You would prefer knowing the truth, presumably, even if the truth hurt more than the fictional lives we once were under.

Truth can hurt? I'd say that some people's reactions to truth can be hurtful. But I like truth, no matter what it is. Besides, truth is reality, without knowing it, you're simply living in a delusion. That's not very happy at all to me.

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

Stile writes:

Weird. For me, knowing better means I no longer have to waste time on what is actually worthless.

Again, that presupposes a goal. What is the goal?

I have no idea. But, if I can identify goals that are fake, I certainly will discard them.

Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

Stile writes:

I can now spend my time on things that have real meaning.

What do you suppose has real meaning?

Don't know. But if I find out that something certainly doesn't have real meaning, it's certainly a waste of time to continue any venture in that direction. This is my plan, to find what does have real meaning. The only way to get closer is to discard those ideas that are shown to be hollow, useless, and fake.

Does the fly worry about when it is going to eat? Does it have the intellect to feel sorry for itself when it is hungry? Does it calculate its moves, or does it rely on baser instincts?

Doesn't matter. I cannot choose to be a fly. I am human. I can choose to be ignorant, or I can choose to try and learn. Learning gives greater happiness (to me, anyway) ALWAYS. Therefore that's what I do.

I think he is saying that while knowledge can be a blessing, it can also be a curse.

Yeah, I think he's saying that too. I certainly can't argue that this is wrong for him. All I'm saying is that this certainly isn't universal, and is definitely the opposite for me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-29-2007 5:59 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 11:29 AM Stile has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 69 of 72 (437512)
11-30-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Stile
11-30-2007 8:48 AM


Re: Progressing towards better
My point was that blissful ignorance isn't any better than blissful knowledge. I've admitted many times that they're at least equal.

Right, hence the blessing and the curse. I guess it also depends on what is to be made known. If you had the ability to know when and how you would die, would you opt to know or not?

Personally, I wouldn't want to be a cat because simple ignorant bliss is not a goal of mine. Happiness, truth, pursuit of life, curiosity... all these things drive me.

Well, yes, of course. You are a human and therefore are driven by human pursuits.

Truth can hurt? I'd say that some people's reactions to truth can be hurtful. But I like truth, no matter what it is.

Yes I would rather know the truth, even if it hurt. And yes, it sometimes can hurt. For instance, say you had a bulge in your abdomen. You are thinking, great, another hernia. You are thinking its a minor inconvenience. You go to get an MRI and discover that its actually a tumor the size of a tennis ball.

if I find out that something certainly doesn't have real meaning, it's certainly a waste of time to continue any venture in that direction. This is my plan, to find what does have real meaning. The only way to get closer is to discard those ideas that are shown to be hollow, useless, and fake.

Ah, but don't you supply meaning to your own microcosm? If meaning exists beyond the self, then what supplies the meaning?


“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Stile, posted 11-30-2007 8:48 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Stile, posted 11-30-2007 3:09 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3438
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 70 of 72 (437568)
11-30-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
11-30-2007 11:29 AM


Re: Progressing towards better
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

If you had the ability to know when and how you would die, would you opt to know or not?

I would want to know. That way I could make sure all my loved ones are taken care of. I wouldn't waste any resources for "if I might need it when I'm older". My life would be much, much happier. Knowing I'm down-right invincible up to a certain date would be awesome. And, since I'm dying that day whether I know it or not, I'd want to make sure I knew so I could use the time I did have as wisely and efficiently as possible. Not knowing would mean I'd be making plans for being alive when I'm actually going to be dead. That's just poor resource management.

And yes, it sometimes can hurt. For instance, say you had a bulge in your abdomen. You are thinking, great, another hernia. You are thinking its a minor inconvenience. You go to get an MRI and discover that its actually a tumor the size of a tennis ball.

Again, that truth wouldn't hurt me. In fact, I'd really want to know it as soon as possible. If I have a tumor (any size) in me, I want to know about it. It's there whether or not I know about it. If I do know about it, I can fix it (possibly). Or at least be fully prepared for death, as in the above case.

Ah, but don't you supply meaning to your own microcosm?

I don't know. I certainly am capable of supplying meaning to my own microcosm. Whether or not that's the only way... I'm not sure we can know. But this doesn't change the fact that if I can determine some false-path for meaning, then I want to know about it so I can stop wasting time with it.

If meaning exists beyond the self, then what supplies the meaning?

Don't know, and don't really care. It has no effect on the fact that if I uncover that something is false, I don't want to waste time on it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 11:29 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 5:39 PM Stile has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 71 of 72 (437590)
11-30-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Stile
11-30-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Progressing towards better
I would want to know. That way I could make sure all my loved ones are taken care of. I wouldn't waste any resources for "if I might need it when I'm older". My life would be much, much happier. Knowing I'm down-right invincible up to a certain date would be awesome.

I suppose it would have its perks, but I'm sure there are drawbacks, like knowing how you would die but don't know when. And then of course, you might always question whether or not you actually know the day you are going to die. If you knew the manner you would, like a car accident, would you constantly be living in fear? Is today the day? It might be maddening, in which case, you aren't living life as it comes, but fearful of the expectation of death.

Again, that truth wouldn't hurt me. In fact, I'd really want to know it as soon as possible. If I have a tumor (any size) in me, I want to know about it. It's there whether or not I know about it. If I do know about it, I can fix it (possibly). Or at least be fully prepared for death, as in the above case.

Alright, perhaps cancer was a bad illustration, since, yes, you would want to know as soon as possible so it won't get any bigger, causing more complications.

What about your beloved wife cheating on you? Don't you think that truth might hurt? Sure, you would want to know the truth, but it would still hurt.


“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Stile, posted 11-30-2007 3:09 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Stile, posted 12-03-2007 8:54 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3438
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 72 of 72 (438172)
12-03-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
11-30-2007 5:39 PM


I want to know, always
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

I suppose it would have its perks (knowing when and where you would die), but I'm sure there are drawbacks, like knowing how you would die but don't know when.

Not for me. Not a single drawback. Don't fall into the trap that everyone feels the same way you do about things.

And then of course, you might always question whether or not you actually know the day you are going to die.

Nope, not me. If I was questioning if I "actually" knew in the least little bit, I'd be in the exact same position I'm in now. And would live my life exactly the same. Then I wouldn't really "know" when and where I was going to die. I'd want to know, if that's even possible.

If you knew the manner you would, like a car accident, would you constantly be living in fear? Is today the day? It might be maddening, in which case, you aren't living life as it comes, but fearful of the expectation of death.

Not for me. I've made my peace with death long ago. It's inevitable. It's going to happen. Even if I knew the manner but not the time, there certainly would not be any fear, no "is today the day", no expectation of death. I'd still want to know, though.

What about your beloved wife cheating on you? Don't you think that truth might hurt? Sure, you would want to know the truth, but it would still hurt.

I'd still want to know, as soon as possible. Because, obviously, if she's cheating on me she's not "my beloved" at all, is she? I'd want to know as soon as possible so I could get out of the relationship and move on to finding my real beloved.

In fact, this example illustrates my point perfectly. Who'd want a delusional relationship? I'd want to know about this as soon as possible. Then I'd know I was wasting my time fussing over a false-hood. With that knowledge, I could get out of the fake-relationship and move on to finding a real one, with real benefits from real love.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 5:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
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