Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Pascal's Wager - Any Way to Live a Life
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 68 of 126 (438164)
12-03-2007 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
11-07-2007 8:18 PM


Good question.
Pascal's wager:
* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.
* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.
I agree with Phat.
Let me also add that IMO pascals wager is a non-thing. It cannot exist according to the bible, and the way I believe God to work in our lives. You cannot just simply "believe in God" and not loose nothing, or gain nothing. There is much to lose, and much to gain, from believing, or more importantly, establishing a relationship with God.
Salvation is not a one time deal, where you say "the sinners prayer" and that's it, you are going to heaven. It is a continuing process, and a decision you make every second, of every day.
Jesus says you must lose your life so you can find it, that does not sound like "nothing to lose to me."
Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
So to answer your question directly, no, Pascal's wager is not an authentic or intellectually honest way to live life, or to preach the gospel. The only way to live and preach life is by love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 11-07-2007 8:18 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 8:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 70 of 126 (438311)
12-03-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by rstrats
12-03-2007 8:24 AM


Is there any implication in that comment that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone exists or that a certain proposition is true?
You took my statement out of context, that is why you cannot answer your own question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 8:24 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 10:31 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 72 of 126 (438345)
12-04-2007 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by rstrats
12-03-2007 10:31 PM


riVeRraT writes:
It is a continuing process, and a decision you make every second, of every day.
What does that sound like to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 10:31 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 8:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 74 of 126 (438454)
12-04-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by rstrats
12-04-2007 8:30 AM


“salvation...is a decision that you make every second of every day”. I just don’t see the applicability of that response to my question. Could you please explain?
Ok, I am assuming that we both accept that believing in Jesus is the way to salvation, according to the bible.
I am saying that it is not just a one time decision, but a decision that affects every moment, of every day. So we are making choices.
What all this has to do with the actual ability to choose to believe, or the ability to choose anything in life is, I am not sure. That seems like a separate topic to me.
What does the ability to choose, have to do with the OP?
Pascal gives us these options to choose, but I do not agree with those options, or do I think those options, have anything to do with actually believing in God, or not believing in God. Or does it really have anything to do with going to heaven or hell, IMO. so Pascals wager is a non-thing to me.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 8:30 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 126 (438506)
12-05-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:00 PM


It has everything to do with it. The OP asked: “...is employing Pascal's Wager in your approach to life an authentic and intellectually honest way to live!?” In order to employ the Wager, a person would have to have the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things and since that is not possible, the Wager is invalid right from the start.
I agree with everyone else that has replied to you so far. And by you telling us that no-one has been to show they can choose, is not proof of not being able to choose.
What about believing by faith? How does that fit into your description of only believing by evidence?
There are many different levels of belief, as jar had stated. Sayings like "I believe whole heartedly" are not around for nothing.
If I see a magic trick on TV, and even though the evidence was right in front of me, I can still "not believe" it's true. So evidence is not the only thing driving this belief feeling we were created with.
By the way (BTW) you can hit the peek button, to see how we are creating these quote boxes, and also welcome to forum
And a creo, is a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:00 PM rstrats has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 89 of 126 (438687)
12-05-2007 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:11 PM


Articulate enough? You haven't even tried to explain yourself. You've only made statements, no explanations.
Well, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and no one that I have asked has been able to do it either.
This is a statement, and a false one at that. There are several people here telling you that they have the ability to choose.
If you are implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it.
Sure, evidence is not proof. Anything beyond evidence, is a choice of believing. That is a decision you make based on many things.
Plus if we weren't actually able to choose, then that word wouldn't even exist.
What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another?
The reasons for that are numerous. You may not believe in God, because there are no good reasons too. But then certain things happen in your life, and you change your mind based on evidence, be it subjective, or objective. You could even change your mind again.
We think, therefor we are.
CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist.
Who said anything about "without a doubt"?
There are always doubts, if something cannot be proven. That's why there are many different levels of belief.
Evolution has an overwhelming amount of evidence (so I am told) so people believe in it very strongly. But not beyond the shadow of a doubt. If new evidence popped up tomorrow against it, any logical rational person would have to change their minds.
Same thing with God. A person could be an atheist all his life, and at one moment, an angel could appear to him, and then he might change his mind. But he doesn't have to, he can choose to go on not believing.
Leprechauns? I believe in them. I was one in my 6th grade play called revenge of the leprechaun. I believe in the possibility that they could exist, but that level of belief is just about zero. There is nothing to base my belief on. Just stories, and the stories are not relevant to me or anything I have experienced (other than the school play) at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 PM rstrats has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024