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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
CK
Member (Idle past 2233 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 1 of 262 (439426)
12-08-2007 7:18 PM


I think it's time we did this one again. A number of members (Buzsaw being the most vocal/jar being the person who tends to do the "calling out") like to cite "fulfilled prophecy" as being evidence for the truth of the bible.

I would therefore like members who support that view to offer the following:

an outline of A fulfilled prophecy that they feel has the strongest evidence to support it. I would suggest the following format for their presentation.

1) the outline of the prophecy as detailed in the bible.

2) the citation/outline of the evidence that demonstrates the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Discussion will evolve from another user presenting 1) + 2) as the basis for debate.

I'll let admin decide the most suitable venue.

Edited by CK, : hey charlie - don't drink and post!


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by IamJoseph, posted 12-08-2007 11:11 PM CK has not yet responded

  
AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 262 (439507)
12-08-2007 10:53 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1774 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 3 of 262 (439514)
12-08-2007 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
12-08-2007 7:18 PM


This can well start with the OT prophesy to return Israel to its historical homeland. Arguably, this can also be seen as the greatest OPEN miracle the last 2000 years, occuring when it was least feasable. It also overturns contrastingly held prophesy that Israel was no more, and the reason for a world conflict today.

quote:

LEV 26/ 42 then will I remember My covenant with Jacob, and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 43 For the land shall lie forsaken without them, and shall be paid her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them; and they shall be paid the punishment of their iniquity; because, even because they rejected Mine ordinances, and their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD. 46 These are the statutes and ordinances and laws, which the LORD made between Him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. {P}


Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 12-08-2007 7:18 PM CK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 1:38 PM IamJoseph has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 262 (439593)
12-09-2007 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by IamJoseph
12-08-2007 11:11 PM


Good Beginning
You've hit on a good opener, IAJ. This is indeed one of the most significant ancient prophecies which Biblical fundamentalists, both Jewish and Christian have anticipated for centuries and milleniums. Now that the world witnesses the end time fulfillment of this remarkable prophecy, the majority of the world including most Jews and Christians are oblivious to the imminency and significance of it's complete fulfillment which will soon come to pass as the messianic prophecies of a messianic kingdom in Israel headquartered at Jerusalem will emerge.

As I said, your opener is excellent. I could augment that with numerous OT updates to that early prophecy such as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Zechariah etc. However I'm going to cite the remarkable Olivet Discourse account were Jesus specifies Jerusalem relative to the dispersement and reoccupation fulfillment.

Luke 21:20-24 writes:

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.

21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Be aware that when Jesus spoke these words, the city of Jerusalem, though under the ultimate authority of Rome was occupied by Jews. Jesus said they would be dispersed among the nations corroborating many OT prophecies to include total desolation of the land but then an undetermined period of time out in the future would eventually come when Gentile occupation would end, clearly implying reoccupation of Jews to the city.

Lo and behold, in the 1967 Six Day Israel War, Jerusalem, including the Wailing Wall moved back into Jewish occupation for the first time since 70 AD when Titus of Rome destroyed the Temple and drove the Jews out to be scattered. I've told this before but I'll refresh that the weekend before that war I had a business in Southern Ca. Everyone knew that war was emminent, Jerusalem amd all Israel being surrounded by enemy nations poised for attack heavily armed by Russia who was powerful then. A neighbor friend who was avoud athiest strolled into my business establishment and asked, "Who's going to win this war, the 2 million Jews or the 20 million Arabs?" I said something like, "Wells, (his name) it may take a few months but Israel will win according to Bible Prophecy." Needless to say that in six short violent days, prophecy was fulfilled and the old walled portion of Jerusalem providentially became reoccupied by Jews as per the prophecy of Jesus and the OT prophets. :cool:


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 262 (439597)
12-09-2007 1:28 PM


Outline Format?
CK, thanks for initiating this thread and thanks to NJ for promoting it. Imo, rather than an outline format, the way we are moving will be more effective, given there won't be a whole lot of scripture to deal with all at once (abe: as would be the case) if they are all formated in outline. This way opponents and proponents may deal with the specific texts as they arise. As is with many prophecies, there may be a number of corroborating scripture texts throughout the Bible which apply to a given prophecy such as the one which has been cited thus far. These all may not come to mind at the same time.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 262 (439600)
12-09-2007 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by IamJoseph
12-08-2007 11:11 PM


a nonsense prophecy

This can well start with the OT prophesy to return Israel to its historical homeland.

I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing in Leviticus 26 about returning folk to their homeland or the creation of some Jewish state.

Folk can read all of Leviticus 26 here but the key point is as usual you are pulling a small piece out of context.

In fact, even the small part that you quoted says:

quote:
44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God.

Nothing there about restoring them to the land, but rather that they will be watched over regardless of where they are.

It appears that your whole assertion of some prophecy here relies on

quote:
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

which is pretty vague and inconclusive and seems to refer to the same covenant mentioned in Leviticus 26:44.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by IamJoseph, posted 12-09-2007 6:19 PM jar has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14807
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 7 of 262 (439601)
12-09-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 1:16 PM


Re: Good Beginning
There are of course problems with this claim.

Firstly the particular part of the prophecy is absent from both Mark and Matthew's version. So we really have to wonder whether Jesus said it at all.

Secondly if we compare it with Mark and Matthew we see that Luke 21:20 refers to the Tribulation mentioned in the other two Gospels.

Thirdly, we have the question of the length of the supposed exile. Luke 20:31 indicates that the whole series of events will happen within the span of one generation. Matthew and Mark also indicate that the timespan will be short - the "signs" in the sky will immediately follow the tribulation with the Second Coming close behind . This is a good example - of a failed prophecy.


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 262 (439612)
12-09-2007 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
12-09-2007 1:38 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
In Biblical eschatology novists tend to isolate specific prophecies as you are attempting to do here. As one delves into and studies the prophecies in debth it becomes evident that prophecies expand upon one another as time passes. This is how the scriptures harmonize to complete the story of planet earth from beginning to end. If you corroborate Leviticus with all the other prophets down the line regarding the dispersement and restoration of the nation of Israel you come to see present day Israel restored to their land in perspective.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 1:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 262 (439624)
12-09-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 2:33 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
Eschatology is of course nothing but mental masturbation and your post is a great example of it. The facts are that so far you have never been able to show a single fulfilled Biblical Prophecy that was actually made before the fact.

In Leviticus 26 there is NOTHING even suggesting some creation of a modern Israel. Deal with it.

Your continued claims of fulfilled prophecy seem somewhat hollow unless you can provide a few examples.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1774 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 10 of 262 (439658)
12-09-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
12-09-2007 1:38 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
You are rejecting what you probably don't want to accept, which is quite commonplace, however your conclusion is deficient. The land reference is attached to a covenant, and this covenant is universely known, with precise aerial mapping border depictions of the promised land, as seen in the OT - given three times. The return factor is also clearly illustrated, qualified with the term 'remnant' [read post-holocaust], strange land [dispersal to Europe], and the longest exile on record ['I will remember you'].

The important aspect of this prophesy is it was foretold prior to the emergence of any nation or religion today [prior to the Arab race, Islam, christianity, greece, Rome, Babylon, etc], and is an 'OPEN' occurence [not a shrouded one], in the midst of the nations. It is ground breaking. Also, it was accompanied by two other enjoined occurences, and attached phenomenons, namely the resurrection of a dead language after 2000 years, which has never occured before [the previous max is 120 years]; and that a military prevailing here was least plausable - this was when Jews were fleeing W.W.11 and all nations slammed their dorrs shut to jews, they met hordes with swords upon landing, and Europe's chimneys still fumed.

It is controversial as well, highlighting its absolute disdain in the region, by nations and peoples who see this as an affront, as it contradicts other, later developed counter prophesies and beliefs. Very few [Evangelists] see it as a positive. This open miracle is varied from others, eg Daniel, Nostradamus, etc - because here the prophesy is stated with very clearly specified details, as opposed vague and spin of multi-level meanings. I miracle is an occurence which defies nature and natural phenomena, and I cannot think of another more desearving one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 1:38 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 262 (439663)
12-09-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by IamJoseph
12-09-2007 6:19 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
I posted links to the material. The folk can actually read what it says.

There is no need to rely on your fantasies.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 262 (439685)
12-09-2007 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
12-09-2007 6:27 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
I agree with what you say. IAJ's quote is taken out of context.
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 262 (439687)
12-09-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by bluescat48
12-09-2007 7:42 PM


One of the normal ways to create prophecy
It is an example of one of the common ways Biblical Christians create prophecies, by going back after the fact and pulling some little piece (often a bunch of unconnected pieces) out of a source and then asserting that they show some imagined event.

It's sad because it diminishes the whole value of the bible, Christianity and drives folk away from the religion.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 14 of 262 (439691)
12-09-2007 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
12-09-2007 7:46 PM


Re: One of the normal ways to create prophecy
I agree
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1774 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 15 of 262 (439704)
12-09-2007 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
12-09-2007 7:46 PM


Re: One of the normal ways to create prophecy
quote:
by going back after the fact and pulling some little piece (often a bunch of unconnected pieces) out of a source and then asserting that they show some imagined event.

Are you saying that there is no specifically worded prophesy concerning a promised land and a return to it in the OT, or are you saying there is this but it is later inserted after the fact?

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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