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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
jar
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Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 6 of 262 (439600)
12-09-2007 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by IamJoseph
12-08-2007 11:11 PM


a nonsense prophecy

This can well start with the OT prophesy to return Israel to its historical homeland.

I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing in Leviticus 26 about returning folk to their homeland or the creation of some Jewish state.

Folk can read all of Leviticus 26 here but the key point is as usual you are pulling a small piece out of context.

In fact, even the small part that you quoted says:

quote:
44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God.

Nothing there about restoring them to the land, but rather that they will be watched over regardless of where they are.

It appears that your whole assertion of some prophecy here relies on

quote:
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

which is pretty vague and inconclusive and seems to refer to the same covenant mentioned in Leviticus 26:44.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 9 of 262 (439624)
12-09-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
12-09-2007 2:33 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
Eschatology is of course nothing but mental masturbation and your post is a great example of it. The facts are that so far you have never been able to show a single fulfilled Biblical Prophecy that was actually made before the fact.

In Leviticus 26 there is NOTHING even suggesting some creation of a modern Israel. Deal with it.

Your continued claims of fulfilled prophecy seem somewhat hollow unless you can provide a few examples.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 11 of 262 (439663)
12-09-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by IamJoseph
12-09-2007 6:19 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
I posted links to the material. The folk can actually read what it says.

There is no need to rely on your fantasies.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 13 of 262 (439687)
12-09-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by bluescat48
12-09-2007 7:42 PM


One of the normal ways to create prophecy
It is an example of one of the common ways Biblical Christians create prophecies, by going back after the fact and pulling some little piece (often a bunch of unconnected pieces) out of a source and then asserting that they show some imagined event.

It's sad because it diminishes the whole value of the bible, Christianity and drives folk away from the religion.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 16 of 262 (439705)
12-09-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by IamJoseph
12-09-2007 9:52 PM


Re: One of the normal ways to create prophecy
Are you saying that there is no specifically worded prophesy concerning a promised land and a return to it in the OT, or are you saying there is this but it is later inserted after the fact?

I'm saying that there is none in Leviticus 26. If you think there is another one, cite chapter and verse and we can take a look at it.

So far we have seen few if ANY prophecies of any sort that stood up to examination. Of the two presented here, one is no prophecy at all and the other is an example of a failed prophecy.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 18 of 262 (439910)
12-10-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
12-10-2007 8:25 PM


How to make a prophecy after the fact.
Put one quote in, put one quote out...
put one toe in and shake it all about...
you do the hokie pokie and you turn yourself around
prophecy is what is found.

Buz, you can go through any text and pull lines out of context to makeup any tale you want.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 21 of 262 (439924)
12-10-2007 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jaywill
12-10-2007 9:06 PM


Re: How to make a prophecy after the fact.
The problem is that you can make up any prophecy when you take material out of context, a piece from here, a piece from there.

To be a legitimate prophecy it must have a few features:

  • specificity
  • a given time frame
  • be actually written before the event
  • be written in one place by one person during one contiguous passage
  • be explicit to those living during the time it was written

To be considered fulfilled, all of the conditions mentioned above need to be shown unambiguously to have happened as well as any outcome specified.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 37 of 262 (440024)
12-11-2007 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
He does not force the will of man to believe.
He does not usurp the human will.

The problem is that the example Buz posted in this thread is flawed. It is an example of creating prohecy where none exist by first forming a conclusion, then sifting through sources to find bits and pieces that can be twisted to support your conclusion and ignoring and eliminating all the other material that if taken in context might refute your pre-established conclusion.

God always leaves you a way out in case you really don't want to believe in Him.

If you really don't want to believe, God will leave you a way out so as to respect your free will.

Which of course is simply bullshit and irrelevant. I happen to believe in GOD, just not the picayune little critter you guys tout or the phony little prophecies you guys create.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 40 of 262 (440065)
12-11-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jaywill
12-11-2007 11:59 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
The key is that you seem to need to create prophecies to support your beliefs and to do so by using the methods pointed out in Message 37, and when attention is drawn to those practices, to fall back on the copout that the poster must want to deny GOD.

You want to chop off the New Testament and say only Genesis to Malachi is God's revelation?

Perhaps you can point out where I actually said that or admit it is just another tactic to avoid addressing the points raised?

A Man comes on the scene who is 100,000 % absolute for the will of God Who He calls His Father. He dies in total obedience to this belief and is believed to have risen again from the dead.

Which is yet another example of totally irrelevant and unimportant misdirection in the hope folk will not notice that it has NOTHING to do with the topic.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 45 of 262 (440170)
12-11-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jaywill
12-11-2007 6:24 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
Well, let's look at it.

First, what we have is a story first written decades after the fact and at best, second hand assertion that Jesus even said such a thing.

Second, it is not explicit as even the quote from the author of John makes clear:

John 2 writes:

18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

so it fails the predictive test.

Third, it is an example of after the fact quotemining and rationalizing, again as the author of John makes clear:

John 2 writes:

22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 47 of 262 (440181)
12-11-2007 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jaywill
12-11-2007 6:44 PM


So present them
Anyway, I believe the prophesies concerning Christ's life, death, and resurrection.

Okay, fine. This is a thread where you can present the best case possible for those you believe have been fulfilled. So far all that has been presented is one that was shown to be failed, one example of creating prophecy by quotemining those lines that might support some prophecy while ignoring the context surrounding them, one second hand example of someone claiming decades after the fact that Jesus said something which even according to the very passage was NOT seen as prophetic at the time and only manufactured again out of context after the fact.

Pick a prophecy you think can be supported and present it. Then we will look to see if it is reasonable and stands up to examination.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 51 of 262 (440394)
12-12-2007 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by IamJoseph
12-12-2007 8:59 PM


Re: I just cannot let this go...
The issue is whether or not you just made up the quote. Did you just make up the quote? If not, please provide the source.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 57 of 262 (440461)
12-13-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
12-13-2007 8:27 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
One key point is that all of the reports jaywill is pointing too are reports written after the fact, and not right after the fact, but rather decades at least after the fact.

They also point to an ambiguous assertion, and make the claim that Jesus was speaking of "his" resurrection as opposed to the physical temple building. They also include specific references from others that show the others understood Jesus to be speaking about the physical temple, but NO mention of Jesus saying "idiots, I'm speaking of my resurrection not your physical temple."

This is not an example of prophecy, but rather at best, post hoc rationalization.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 69 of 262 (440576)
12-13-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jaywill
12-13-2007 6:17 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
jaywill writes:

If the reference to the temple being the physical body of Jesus is ambiguous to you then you should speak for yourself. It is not ambiguous to many readers of John's Gospel.

Actually if you read it and don't just pull stuff out of context, the passage from John 2 itself show the ambiguity and that it was after the fact that his followers made it into a prophecy.

John 2 writes:

18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body.

22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

So not even Jesus followers saw it as prophecy until after the fact.

jaywill writes:

In the previous chapter Jesus compared Himself to Bethel - the house of God (Gen. 28:16,17) in this saying:

That is not prophecy. Get serious. It is at best an illusion to a familiar story.

The topic is on "fulfilled prophecy - specific examples".

Are you planing on presenting any for examination?


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 72 of 262 (440592)
12-13-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jaywill
12-13-2007 7:16 PM


Making prophecy the Biblical Christian way.
No they didn't jar. They remembered what Jesus had said and they believed. They understood the relevance of what He said after HE WAS DESTROYED (supposedly) and He miraculously rose from the dead on the third day.

jaywill, unlike you, I actually posed the whole passage in Message 69 and highlighted the support for my position.

"You will see ..." That's a prediction jar. That is prophecy because it most likely refers to the second coming of Christ. It has not been fulfilled entirely yet. It has been fulfilled in that the Son of Man was the dwelling place of the Divine uncreated God.

Thank you for again supporting my position. Note that you say "most likely refers to the second coming of Christ." Talk about ambiguous. Even you cannot say what it means.

Some of the people were also impatient with Moses. When Pharoah did not give in on the first sign which Moses performed the people doubted Moses as a savior sent by God. Same with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th plague.

Dance away again, change the subject, palm the pea, and as usual, pick an absolutely indefensible point as your support.

First, there is no evidence that the Exodus ever happened. Second, if you read the story you will find that the problem freeing the Hebrews in the tale is not the Pharaoh, but God. But again, no prophecy.

Do you have any examples of fulfilled prophecy?


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