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Author | Topic: fulfilled prophecy - specific examples. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
This can well start with the OT prophesy to return Israel to its historical homeland. Arguably, this can also be seen as the greatest OPEN miracle the last 2000 years, occuring when it was least feasable. It also overturns contrastingly held prophesy that Israel was no more, and the reason for a world conflict today.
quote: Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
You are rejecting what you probably don't want to accept, which is quite commonplace, however your conclusion is deficient. The land reference is attached to a covenant, and this covenant is universely known, with precise aerial mapping border depictions of the promised land, as seen in the OT - given three times. The return factor is also clearly illustrated, qualified with the term 'remnant' [read post-holocaust], strange land [dispersal to Europe], and the longest exile on record ['I will remember you'].
The important aspect of this prophesy is it was foretold prior to the emergence of any nation or religion today [prior to the Arab race, Islam, christianity, greece, Rome, Babylon, etc], and is an 'OPEN' occurence [not a shrouded one], in the midst of the nations. It is ground breaking. Also, it was accompanied by two other enjoined occurences, and attached phenomenons, namely the resurrection of a dead language after 2000 years, which has never occured before [the previous max is 120 years]; and that a military prevailing here was least plausable - this was when Jews were fleeing W.W.11 and all nations slammed their dorrs shut to jews, they met hordes with swords upon landing, and Europe's chimneys still fumed. It is controversial as well, highlighting its absolute disdain in the region, by nations and peoples who see this as an affront, as it contradicts other, later developed counter prophesies and beliefs. Very few [Evangelists] see it as a positive. This open miracle is varied from others, eg Daniel, Nostradamus, etc - because here the prophesy is stated with very clearly specified details, as opposed vague and spin of multi-level meanings. I miracle is an occurence which defies nature and natural phenomena, and I cannot think of another more desearving one.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Are you saying that there is no specifically worded prophesy concerning a promised land and a return to it in the OT, or are you saying there is this but it is later inserted after the fact? Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Two points here. The covenant was unconditional, but qualified with the severest penalties attached for blatant and sustained disregard of the law ['I will punish you sevenfold'; 'I will turn the hearts and the minds of the nations against you']. In a sense, this makes the prophesy more vindicated in its qualified and attached punishments also occuring, as seen in past history, and continueing till today. Re Land covenanted to Abraham, this refers to all of Abraham's seed. The Israelite portion was made to Jacob [Israel] and Moses. The borders described to Moses, just prior to entry in Canaan, is from the River Jordan to the sea. This is given very accurately, accounting for all directions [N, S, E W], akin to aerial mapped terrain details of seas, rivers, mountains, wadis, nations and routes. Re 'and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward' - this rifers to Lake Kinnerete, which buts Jordan and Syria. Almost all these places are identified, including the current controversy over a small village bordering Lebanon, also claimed by Hezbollah and Syra. Many other places [Kardesh barbea, etc] are also cited in other sectors of scripture:
quote: Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: I fully concur. Both Europe and the Arab muslims should be taken to task: both knew who's homeland this was, how and why it was invaded [they partook in this invasion, with 10,000 Britons and 200,000 Pre-Islamic Arabs as paid mercenary soldiers/Josephus Documents], and stole and looted this land - then obsessively lied with the world's most notoruous historical falsehoods, and barred Jews from returning. The Arabs even sent their Mayor Haj Amin, begging Hitler not to let any Jews escape alive; while this was said by Europe's Pope: 'WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JESUS' - W.W.11 POPE. Both did the reverse of what a God fearing religion should have done, and I believe the Arabs and Europe are paying, and will pay - unless they make amends. I see this occuring by a mysterious force - while the UN has been utterly corrupted, with no UN Resolutuons for what are the worst crimes of humanity in all recorded history. I believe here these nations were tested: obviously, one cannot boast about love and peace with their own - it has to be evidenced with others, specially from those one robs, murders and lies. Both Europe and the Arabs utterly failed the test given them.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Yes, we won't discuss it. Israel is always a controversial factor for Europe and Islam.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Sure. But giving laws is not called forcing or negating peoples' will. Reduce to real life, would you call a law court as imposing on your free will? Should there be laws not to murder or steal - or should this left to the individual's whims? Freedom w/o laws = chaos.Freedom with the law = Liberty. Free will is best protected by the law.
quote: There is very little room for doubt here. One can think - the OT laws are the world's most harkened to, despite its anciency. Its laws govern the world's Institutions, and all family, workers, environment and animal rights laws almost exclusively.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: I don't see any faith related to these laws - these are very real world applications, with no names attached, because they stand on their own merits. It appears these 613 laws are made with a universal and humanitarian application, as opposed inclined to one religion or faith. It also has a myserious aspect to it: all its laws are followed by the world exclusively today - not a single world accepted law comes from any other religion or ideology. How can one account for such - when 4 or 5 other religions appeared after it, and the world progressed and advanced? There is even a bold, daring law in the OT which says, NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT - and its vindicated.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: If another view is to be entertained, it should have some substance and evidence. If it appears after 2000 years, w/o any back-up evidence, then it is faith related, and cannot be challenged. It is only challengeable if proof is submitted. But this does not impact on laws - which are not faith based but the glue which keeps humanity turning as we speak.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: As if there is a reason to prove that Jews were persecuted and barred from returning for 2000 years! Of coz, I will do what you ask. But first one must state if it is true, it was a great violation of Godliness or any assumed religious belief. Also, a stain upon all Europen christians who never took it up - and instead annointed such a person as a Saint - as was done with Isabela of Spain, which was responded to with the expelled Jews discovering America - Columbus, and all his ship Mapsters were Jewish, making America a Zionist Plot!? Else it all goes cyclic, denial upon denial, etc.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: I will retrieve this, which is not usually published by Wiki, due to its inflamatory nature. However, the quote about restricting Jews' returning to Israel, and the Vatican's barring of it, is commonplace history, and I have seen that quoted numerously, and thus quoted it. Re which Pope, what I have seen is that many Jews, quite a large portion, hail the Pope X11, while others call him the silent Pope - while qualifying this as his intention was good, etc. I personally do not believe the 'other reasons' impacting on such a critical issue, namely the worst in humanity's history. I do believe if the Pope spoke out, there was a reasonable chance Hitler, the holocaust, and millions [not just Jews] would have been saved. I don't think there was any option for a religious leader to speak out, even risk his life, at such a time. There are many instances when the Pope did not respond to fervent calls to say/do something - in the Vichy France instant, which sent 10,000 children to the camps, by camp prisoners, and many others: all met non responses. All christians should be aghast at beautifying a Pope who was unsuccessful of stopping such a terrible attrocity: it downgrades the status of beatification, and establishes a treshold of a poor example for other Popes.
quote:quote: Re hstorical rejection, and that of Israel, this does show the similarities between european christianity [as oppsed American christianity in general], and that of Islam, namely where these doctrines come from:
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: What most disregard, it that christian belief has nothing to do with resurrection, or if Jesus existed or not. Its foolish to even speak of a resurrection reported by far removed third party reports, supposedly witnessed by someone; nor is the report of a resurrrction for a few days, followed by death or non physical existence - a resurrection! For that matter - who says a messiah needs resurrection - its the dead which need this feat, remember?! [Isaiah]. Quoting OT scriptures also is devoid of any merit and veracity: the quotes are totally distorted, translated eronously, affirmed as such by most christian scholars - these pick out only certain verses which were selected because they can be subject to distortion easily, while disregading the entire body of works in the OT and Isaiah. One can quote 1000s of verses from both Isaiah and the OT which points only to the antithesis of what was concluded by christianity. So how come millions harkened to it, and others did not? Bearing in mind that christianity is the world's most powerful and advanced peoples, humanity's 'educaters', what compelled them to entertain such way out, blatantly unbelievable reports: why did they not demand proof? Fact is, even if absolute proof was presented today all of the NT was a fiction, in a manner which cannot be rejected - christians would still uphold and cling to their beliefs. So there is a certain mystery here, and its not a virtual, made up one, but better described as a 'compulsion'; an almost uncontrolled, involuntary action. Here, the 'belief' is very powerful and sincere, while the 'proof and evidence' to back it up is wanting, deficient or even non-existant. This only highlights a compulsion. What is not understood here is, had a compulsion not occured, there would be no christianity today. This is true even if Jews accepted the NT: this would result not in christianity, but only an extended Judaism. But when one reads the OT, we have another prophesy to contend with: 'AND ABRAHAM SHALL BE THE FATHER OF MANY NATIONS' [Gen] The term 'nations' applies to a nation state and a religion ['Nation of Israel'/Exodus]. This marks another prophesy, one which predates Christianity, and is also vindicated. A close examination of the OT prophesies being fullfilled is that this never occurs in shrouded form [it is always in OPEN form], and it appears when it is least possible - highlighting the merit of its occurence. Here, christianity flourished - when all the facts and reasoning was against its occurence. Till this day, no one can prove the veracty of the NT reports - while it occured when writings was commonplace, allowing no excuse for no Hebrew gospels - specially in the midst of the Dead`Sea Scrolls, the copious Flavius Josephus books and the Roman writings: not a thing in history of the Gospels - nothing whatsoever exists of this writings and its reportings out-side the Gospels; and to boot, the OT adherence [Jews] did not accept it, nor did the Pre-islamic arabs in the same spacetime. IMHO, the above factors prove christian belief as Godly inclined and heaven bestowed or sanctioned, more so than any other factors. There is no reason whatsoever that any peoples can logically believe what is written in the NT - save for a mysterious compulsion. This factor highlights also, the power of the OT prophesies. Like Jews and Muslims, christians were impacted by OT sparks. That each of these belief systems have a core, irreconciable difference is also easily explained: a religion cannot subsist unless it posits a stance it is the only right way - and any other not so; the other factor is the OT prophesy which had to come about - which appears non-negotiable. A big pic view shows a different tale when the small pic is zoomed out from. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: No, I did not do that, and did not have to. It is well quoted numerously.
quote: No, it supports the Pope's position - historically, and in W.W.11. The Pope opposes a Jewish state - when he should be the last man on earth to do so. As an historical witness, he cannot posit diplomacy or revisionist premises, nor should he use his religious beliefs to negate another peoples, religion or nation's rights. While millions of christians support the Pope as a great inspiration, admitting what is wrong should not become distorted. Today, both Europe and the Arabs are distorting truth and history - because they interpret their scriptures eronously, and the sole judge here. It is a cover for hiding wrongs of the past.
quote: If you refer to horrific and unGodly antisemitism, it is not palming off. While there is widespread support for the W.W.11 Pope is mostly praised in Israel, even a proposal to honor his memory being planned, I see this as a bogus deal if the Pope cannot acknowledge Israel's rights to a homeland and Capital - or that this was robbed by Europe: Rome - the Pope's namesake of Roman Catholicism. IMHO, the Pope bears false witness in each denial of a jewish state - which is a far more legit premise than any state in Europe or Arabia. My pursuit is for truthfulness.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Care to show us some jewish archives as your evidence? That a mosque was dumped on the Jews' most holy site, now shamelessly referred to a Islam's 3rd holy site - with no mention of this being first the Jews' most holy site - can NEVER be conscrued as anything other than a most terrible attrocity. The same was done in India: if this was such a kindly deed, why did they destroy that Mosque? Pack your mosque and elevated to Islamic sacred soil: Mohammed asked you to point to Mecca. The 3rd holy was later contrived to justify robbery and murder, then present it as a gift of Islam! Fact is, both the church and the muslims engaged in competing robbery, racism and mass murders - and both have a falsely contrived religious motive as a justificstion of their crimes. Today, the world is on edge solely because of these two forms of religious racism. Both cannot be right - each contradicts the other - the price fixed on your falsehoods.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3667 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: What was first presented in the OT - cannot be posited as a Jesus or Roman prophesy. Prophesy is only when one says something others did not. Precedent rules: at best, it can be posited as an OT prophesy, and 'repeated' by others. Else the OT becomes downgraded - falsely.
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