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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 3 of 262 (439514)
12-08-2007 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
12-08-2007 7:18 PM


This can well start with the OT prophesy to return Israel to its historical homeland. Arguably, this can also be seen as the greatest OPEN miracle the last 2000 years, occuring when it was least feasable. It also overturns contrastingly held prophesy that Israel was no more, and the reason for a world conflict today.
quote:
LEV 26/ 42 then will I remember My covenant with Jacob, and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 43 For the land shall lie forsaken without them, and shall be paid her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them; and they shall be paid the punishment of their iniquity; because, even because they rejected Mine ordinances, and their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD. 46 These are the statutes and ordinances and laws, which the LORD made between Him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. {P}
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 10 of 262 (439658)
12-09-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
12-09-2007 1:38 PM


Re: a nonsense prophecy
You are rejecting what you probably don't want to accept, which is quite commonplace, however your conclusion is deficient. The land reference is attached to a covenant, and this covenant is universely known, with precise aerial mapping border depictions of the promised land, as seen in the OT - given three times. The return factor is also clearly illustrated, qualified with the term 'remnant' [read post-holocaust], strange land [dispersal to Europe], and the longest exile on record ['I will remember you'].
The important aspect of this prophesy is it was foretold prior to the emergence of any nation or religion today [prior to the Arab race, Islam, christianity, greece, Rome, Babylon, etc], and is an 'OPEN' occurence [not a shrouded one], in the midst of the nations. It is ground breaking. Also, it was accompanied by two other enjoined occurences, and attached phenomenons, namely the resurrection of a dead language after 2000 years, which has never occured before [the previous max is 120 years]; and that a military prevailing here was least plausable - this was when Jews were fleeing W.W.11 and all nations slammed their dorrs shut to jews, they met hordes with swords upon landing, and Europe's chimneys still fumed.
It is controversial as well, highlighting its absolute disdain in the region, by nations and peoples who see this as an affront, as it contradicts other, later developed counter prophesies and beliefs. Very few [Evangelists] see it as a positive. This open miracle is varied from others, eg Daniel, Nostradamus, etc - because here the prophesy is stated with very clearly specified details, as opposed vague and spin of multi-level meanings. I miracle is an occurence which defies nature and natural phenomena, and I cannot think of another more desearving one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 1:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 15 of 262 (439704)
12-09-2007 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
12-09-2007 7:46 PM


Re: One of the normal ways to create prophecy
quote:
by going back after the fact and pulling some little piece (often a bunch of unconnected pieces) out of a source and then asserting that they show some imagined event.
Are you saying that there is no specifically worded prophesy concerning a promised land and a return to it in the OT, or are you saying there is this but it is later inserted after the fact?
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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 Message 13 by jar, posted 12-09-2007 7:46 PM jar has replied

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 28 of 262 (439985)
12-11-2007 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
12-10-2007 8:25 PM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT
quote:
The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant.
Two points here. The covenant was unconditional, but qualified with the severest penalties attached for blatant and sustained disregard of the law ['I will punish you sevenfold'; 'I will turn the hearts and the minds of the nations against you']. In a sense, this makes the prophesy more vindicated in its qualified and attached punishments also occuring, as seen in past history, and continueing till today.
Re Land covenanted to Abraham, this refers to all of Abraham's seed. The Israelite portion was made to Jacob [Israel] and Moses. The borders described to Moses, just prior to entry in Canaan, is from the River Jordan to the sea. This is given very accurately, accounting for all directions [N, S, E W], akin to aerial mapped terrain details of seas, rivers, mountains, wadis, nations and routes.
Re 'and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward' - this rifers to Lake Kinnerete, which buts Jordan and Syria. Almost all these places are identified, including the current controversy over a small village bordering Lebanon, also claimed by Hezbollah and Syra. Many other places [Kardesh barbea, etc] are also cited in other sectors of scripture:
quote:
Numbers Chapter 34
1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:
2 'Command the children of Israel, and say unto them: When ye come into the land of Canaan, this shall be the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan according to the borders thereof.
3 Thus your south side shall be from the wilderness of Zin close by the side of Edom, and your south border shall begin at the end of the Salt Sea eastward;
4 and your border shall turn about southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass along to Zin; and the goings out thereof shall be southward of Kadesh-barnea; and it shall go forth to Hazar-addar, and pass along to Azmon;
5 and the border shall turn about from Azmon unto the Brook of Egypt, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Sea.
6 And for the western border, ye shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your west border.
. 7 And this shall be your north border: from the Great Sea ye shall mark out your line unto mount Hor;
8 from mount Hor ye shall mark out a line unto the entrance to Hamath; and the goings out of the border shall be at Zedad; and the border shall go forth to Ziphron, and the goings out thereof shall be at Hazar-enan; this shall be your north border.
10 And ye shall mark out your line for the east border from Hazar-enan to Shepham;
and the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall go down, and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward;
and the border shall go down to the Jordan, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Salt Sea; this shall be your land according to the borders thereof round about.'
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 29 of 262 (439987)
12-11-2007 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
12-11-2007 3:55 AM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT - another failure
quote:
l that can be said of this "prophecy" is that it is one of the major causes of bloodshed in the Middle East.
I fully concur. Both Europe and the Arab muslims should be taken to task: both knew who's homeland this was, how and why it was invaded [they partook in this invasion, with 10,000 Britons and 200,000 Pre-Islamic Arabs as paid mercenary soldiers/Josephus Documents], and stole and looted this land - then obsessively lied with the world's most notoruous historical falsehoods, and barred Jews from returning. The Arabs even sent their Mayor Haj Amin, begging Hitler not to let any Jews escape alive; while this was said by Europe's Pope:
'WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JESUS' - W.W.11 POPE.
Both did the reverse of what a God fearing religion should have done, and I believe the Arabs and Europe are paying, and will pay - unless they make amends. I see this occuring by a mysterious force - while the UN has been utterly corrupted, with no UN Resolutuons for what are the worst crimes of humanity in all recorded history. I believe here these nations were tested: obviously, one cannot boast about love and peace with their own - it has to be evidenced with others, specially from those one robs, murders and lies. Both Europe and the Arabs utterly failed the test given them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 3:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 6:20 AM IamJoseph has replied
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 31 of 262 (439991)
12-11-2007 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
12-11-2007 6:20 AM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT - another failure
Yes, we won't discuss it. Israel is always a controversial factor for Europe and Islam.

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Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 32 of 262 (440006)
12-11-2007 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
He does not force the will of man to believe.
He does not usurp the human will.
Sure. But giving laws is not called forcing or negating peoples' will. Reduce to real life, would you call a law court as imposing on your free will? Should there be laws not to murder or steal - or should this left to the individual's whims?
Freedom w/o laws = chaos.
Freedom with the law = Liberty.
Free will is best protected by the law.
quote:
Therefore there is always room left for you to doubt.
There is very little room for doubt here. One can think - the OT laws are the world's most harkened to, despite its anciency. Its laws govern the world's Institutions, and all family, workers, environment and animal rights laws almost exclusively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 3:07 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 34 of 262 (440016)
12-11-2007 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
12-11-2007 8:38 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
My point here is not that much related to the law. It is related to faith. It is related to faith and love and trust.
I don't see any faith related to these laws - these are very real world applications, with no names attached, because they stand on their own merits. It appears these 613 laws are made with a universal and humanitarian application, as opposed inclined to one religion or faith.
It also has a myserious aspect to it: all its laws are followed by the world exclusively today - not a single world accepted law comes from any other religion or ideology. How can one account for such - when 4 or 5 other religions appeared after it, and the world progressed and advanced? There is even a bold, daring law in the OT which says, NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT - and its vindicated.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 36 of 262 (440020)
12-11-2007 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
12-11-2007 8:38 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
Maybe Isaac is not the child.
Maybe God will not be with Jacob everywhere.
Maybe Moses is not the one sent to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Maybe the Israelites should have remained in Egypt.
Maybe they won't be able to conquer the land of Canaan.
If another view is to be entertained, it should have some substance and evidence. If it appears after 2000 years, w/o any back-up evidence, then it is faith related, and cannot be challenged. It is only challengeable if proof is submitted. But this does not impact on laws - which are not faith based but the glue which keeps humanity turning as we speak.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 50 of 262 (440390)
12-12-2007 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Lithodid-Man
12-11-2007 1:17 PM


Re: I just cannot let this go...
quote:
SO Joseph - Would you please either show us where you got this quote or admit you made it up?
As if there is a reason to prove that Jews were persecuted and barred from returning for 2000 years! Of coz, I will do what you ask. But first one must state if it is true, it was a great violation of Godliness or any assumed religious belief. Also, a stain upon all Europen christians who never took it up - and instead annointed such a person as a Saint - as was done with Isabela of Spain, which was responded to with the expelled Jews discovering America - Columbus, and all his ship Mapsters were Jewish, making America a Zionist Plot!? Else it all goes cyclic, denial upon denial, etc.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 53 of 262 (440439)
12-13-2007 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Lithodid-Man
12-11-2007 1:17 PM


Re: I just cannot let this go...
quote:
This too much. I spent the better part of the morning trying to find any support that 'W.W.11 Pope' (I assume you mean Pius XII?) ever said this or anything that could be twisted into this. The only hits I find on it are (drum roll please) OTHER posts on other forums by IaJ. That is suspicious in itself.
I will retrieve this, which is not usually published by Wiki, due to its inflamatory nature. However, the quote about restricting Jews' returning to Israel, and the Vatican's barring of it, is commonplace history, and I have seen that quoted numerously, and thus quoted it. Re which Pope, what I have seen is that many Jews, quite a large portion, hail the Pope X11, while others call him the silent Pope - while qualifying this as his intention was good, etc. I personally do not believe the 'other reasons' impacting on such a critical issue, namely the worst in humanity's history. I do believe if the Pope spoke out, there was a reasonable chance Hitler, the holocaust, and millions [not just Jews] would have been saved. I don't think there was any option for a religious leader to speak out, even risk his life, at such a time. There are many instances when the Pope did not respond to fervent calls to say/do something - in the Vichy France instant, which sent 10,000 children to the camps, by camp prisoners, and many others: all met non responses.
All christians should be aghast at beautifying a Pope who was unsuccessful of stopping such a terrible attrocity: it downgrades the status of beatification, and establishes a treshold of a poor example for other Popes.
quote:
quote:
I did find a bio on wiki about this pope which mentions nothing about his opinions on the State of Israel but he did reverse his earlier WWII neutrality stance and make it RC policy that the church is to aid and assist all Jewish refugees.

Re hstorical rejection, and that of Israel, this does show the similarities between european christianity [as oppsed American christianity in general], and that of Islam, namely where these doctrines come from:
quote:
XI: Both Pius XI and Pius XII firmly believed that theirs was the only true religion. Hence, they agreed with the claim asserted by their predecessor Pope Boniface VIII, in his papal bull Unam Sanctam, promulgated in 1302, that outside the church "there is neither salvation nor remission of sins." As we shall see, this ancient claim goes a long way toward explaining the Vatican's Jewish policy before and during the Holocaust.
Boniface's claim was to remain the official position of the church until the Vatican Ecumenical Council of 1962--65. In the spirit of that council, in 1964 Pope Paul VI proclaimed the conciliar decree Lumen Gentium: On the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church. It allowed for the possibility that non-Catholics might "attain eternal salvation" while affirming the church's unique place in the divine plan for salvation: "For they who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation."
The church's new attitude of inclusiveness has made a powerful and welcome difference in its relations with other Christian churches and other religions, but that attitude came only after the pontificates of Pius XI and Pius XII.2
A MONOPOLY ON SALVATION
Before we turn specifically to Pope Pius XI, let us consider what was at stake for the church in insisting on its claim to be the only true mediator between humanity and the Creator. In effect, the church sought a cognitive monopoly in matters religious within those territories subject to its control. By cognitive monopoly, I mean the exclusive power to define religious and moral reality. Indeed, until modern times the church had no other choice. Membership in the Catholic Church involved more than belief and ritual participation. It meant membership in a religiously grounded civilization at a time when that civilization was challenged continually by a rival civilization, Islam, that also claimed to be the true path to salvation.
The issue came down to whether the Bible or the Qur'an would be taught at the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, Paris, and Bologna and whether the sacred space at the heart of Paris would be occupied by Notre Dame Cathedral or a structure like the Great Mosque in C-rdoba, Spain. (Under 'Abd ar-Rahman III [891--961], the caliphate of C-rdoba had one million inhabitants and was arguably the largest and the most cultured city in Europe.) Until very recently, there was no way that the church could permit Islam free access to the Christian faithful. To this day, most Islamic nations deny Christians the right to propagate their religion on pain of death.
Nor could the church permit religious dissent within Christendom. Faced with the challenge of a powerful and militant external religious adversary, it could not tolerate internal enemies. In its eyes heretics were internal enemies and, as such, constituted at least as great a threat to the church's cognitive monopoly as the external enemy. That was the logic behind the Inquisition and its attempts to secure unity of faith within Christendom.
Jews were considered nonbelievers rather than heretics, and Judaism was the only non-Christian religion permitted to survive within Christendom, albeit in a strictly regulated form. The fundamental reason was theological. Under the influence of Saint Paul and Saint Augustine, Jews were permitted to survive but not thrive in full confidence that God would eventually lead a remnant of Israel to accept Christ. Nevertheless, their lives and freedom were greatly restricted. As an added assurance that Jews could not challenge the church's cognitive monopoly, their credibility was impugned as "deicides" in league with Satan. Under no circumstances were Jews permitted to lead the faithful astray. At stake was the credibility of the religious foundations of Christian civilization.
All this changed with the French Revolution. By disestablishing the Catholic Church and granting full political and civic rights to the Jews and Protestants, the French Revolution destroyed the church's cognitive monopoly in religious matters. During the nineteenth century, the church saw all of the forces unleashed by the French Revolution-- such as modernity, liberalism, nationalism, and secularism--as its enemies, and not without reason.
The church was determined to fight back. Believing the Jews were both the instigators and the chief beneficiaries of the new world of modernity, it was determined eventually to restore the old order. Moreover, there was one corner of Europe where the...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-11-2007 1:17 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-13-2007 11:56 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 54 of 262 (440443)
12-13-2007 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by PaulK
12-12-2007 3:59 AM


ANOTHER VIEW
quote:
Well lets see. Firstly you have to show that Jesus said that.
Then we have to show that Jesus was resurrected.
What most disregard, it that christian belief has nothing to do with resurrection, or if Jesus existed or not. Its foolish to even speak of a resurrection reported by far removed third party reports, supposedly witnessed by someone; nor is the report of a resurrrction for a few days, followed by death or non physical existence - a resurrection! For that matter - who says a messiah needs resurrection - its the dead which need this feat, remember?! [Isaiah].
Quoting OT scriptures also is devoid of any merit and veracity: the quotes are totally distorted, translated eronously, affirmed as such by most christian scholars - these pick out only certain verses which were selected because they can be subject to distortion easily, while disregading the entire body of works in the OT and Isaiah. One can quote 1000s of verses from both Isaiah and the OT which points only to the antithesis of what was concluded by christianity.
So how come millions harkened to it, and others did not? Bearing in mind that christianity is the world's most powerful and advanced peoples, humanity's 'educaters', what compelled them to entertain such way out, blatantly unbelievable reports: why did they not demand proof? Fact is, even if absolute proof was presented today all of the NT was a fiction, in a manner which cannot be rejected - christians would still uphold and cling to their beliefs. So there is a certain mystery here, and its not a virtual, made up one, but better described as a 'compulsion'; an almost uncontrolled, involuntary action.
Here, the 'belief' is very powerful and sincere, while the 'proof and evidence' to back it up is wanting, deficient or even non-existant. This only highlights a compulsion. What is not understood here is, had a compulsion not occured, there would be no christianity today. This is true even if Jews accepted the NT: this would result not in christianity, but only an extended Judaism. But when one reads the OT, we have another prophesy to contend with:
'AND ABRAHAM SHALL BE THE FATHER OF MANY NATIONS' [Gen]
The term 'nations' applies to a nation state and a religion ['Nation of Israel'/Exodus]. This marks another prophesy, one which predates Christianity, and is also vindicated. A close examination of the OT prophesies being fullfilled is that this never occurs in shrouded form [it is always in OPEN form], and it appears when it is least possible - highlighting the merit of its occurence. Here, christianity flourished - when all the facts and reasoning was against its occurence. Till this day, no one can prove the veracty of the NT reports - while it occured when writings was commonplace, allowing no excuse for no Hebrew gospels - specially in the midst of the Dead`Sea Scrolls, the copious Flavius Josephus books and the Roman writings: not a thing in history of the Gospels - nothing whatsoever exists of this writings and its reportings out-side the Gospels; and to boot, the OT adherence [Jews] did not accept it, nor did the Pre-islamic arabs in the same spacetime.
IMHO, the above factors prove christian belief as Godly inclined and heaven bestowed or sanctioned, more so than any other factors. There is no reason whatsoever that any peoples can logically believe what is written in the NT - save for a mysterious compulsion. This factor highlights also, the power of the OT prophesies. Like Jews and Muslims, christians were impacted by OT sparks. That each of these belief systems have a core, irreconciable difference is also easily explained: a religion cannot subsist unless it posits a stance it is the only right way - and any other not so; the other factor is the OT prophesy which had to come about - which appears non-negotiable. A big pic view shows a different tale when the small pic is zoomed out from.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 61 of 262 (440535)
12-13-2007 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Lithodid-Man
12-13-2007 11:56 AM


Re: I just cannot let this go...
quote:
Okay, now I understand. In other words, YOU MADE UP THE QUOTE.
No, I did not do that, and did not have to. It is well quoted numerously.
quote:
It supports your position, you believe the attitude was there, so you made up and cited something that didn't exist.
No, it supports the Pope's position - historically, and in W.W.11. The Pope opposes a Jewish state - when he should be the last man on earth to do so. As an historical witness, he cannot posit diplomacy or revisionist premises, nor should he use his religious beliefs to negate another peoples, religion or nation's rights. While millions of christians support the Pope as a great inspiration, admitting what is wrong should not become distorted. Today, both Europe and the Arabs are distorting truth and history - because they interpret their scriptures eronously, and the sole judge here. It is a cover for hiding wrongs of the past.
quote:
Also, it did not escape me that you were 'palming the pea' here.
If you refer to horrific and unGodly antisemitism, it is not palming off. While there is widespread support for the W.W.11 Pope is mostly praised in Israel, even a proposal to honor his memory being planned, I see this as a bogus deal if the Pope cannot acknowledge Israel's rights to a homeland and Capital - or that this was robbed by Europe: Rome - the Pope's namesake of Roman Catholicism. IMHO, the Pope bears false witness in each denial of a jewish state - which is a far more legit premise than any state in Europe or Arabia. My pursuit is for truthfulness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-13-2007 11:56 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by AdminNosy, posted 12-13-2007 4:06 PM IamJoseph has replied
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 62 of 262 (440539)
12-13-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Nimrod
12-13-2007 3:51 PM


Re: Good Beginning
quote:
Jews had access to the Wailing Wall.
Jerusalem became a center of Judaism.
Care to show us some jewish archives as your evidence? That a mosque was dumped on the Jews' most holy site, now shamelessly referred to a Islam's 3rd holy site - with no mention of this being first the Jews' most holy site - can NEVER be conscrued as anything other than a most terrible attrocity. The same was done in India: if this was such a kindly deed, why did they destroy that Mosque?
Pack your mosque and elevated to Islamic sacred soil: Mohammed asked you to point to Mecca. The 3rd holy was later contrived to justify robbery and murder, then present it as a gift of Islam! Fact is, both the church and the muslims engaged in competing robbery, racism and mass murders - and both have a falsely contrived religious motive as a justificstion of their crimes. Today, the world is on edge solely because of these two forms of religious racism. Both cannot be right - each contradicts the other - the price fixed on your falsehoods.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 64 of 262 (440543)
12-13-2007 4:11 PM


quote:
Buzsaw-
Be aware that when Jesus spoke these words, the city of Jerusalem, though under the ultimate authority of Rome was occupied by Jews. Jesus said they would be dispersed among the nations corroborating many OT prophecies to include total desolation of the land but then an undetermined period of time out in the future would eventually come when Gentile occupation would end, clearly implying reoccupation of Jews to the city.
Lo and behold, in the 1967 Six Day Israel War, Jerusalem, including the Wailing Wall moved back into Jewish occupation for the first time since 70 AD when Titus of Rome destroyed the Temple and drove the Jews out to be scattered.
What was first presented in the OT - cannot be posited as a Jesus or Roman prophesy. Prophesy is only when one says something others did not. Precedent rules: at best, it can be posited as an OT prophesy, and 'repeated' by others. Else the OT becomes downgraded - falsely.

  
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