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Author Topic:   His Dark Materials
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 31 of 69 (439619)
12-09-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
12-06-2007 7:02 PM


Re: The Movie
There is that part towards the end where, you know, they kill God.
The author doesn't kill God in the 3rd book, he kills a god. The real God in fantasy books is the one never directly mentioned, who controls everything and makes sure that no matter what goes wrong, things end up the way they're supposed to. The kid who wrote Eragon (Christopher Paolini?) may be an atheist, but he most certainly writes in the same God that Pullman writes in and that Tolkien wrote in.
It seems strange that Pullman would get called anti-C.S. Lewis in this thread, because C.S. Lewis was a huge fan of George MacDonald's, and I am quite convinced that George MacDonald would say of Philip Pullman the same thing he said of the skeptics of his day, after wholeheartedly agreeing with something one said: "This passage bears out what I have often said--that I never yet heard a word from one of their way of thinking, which even touched anything I hold."
Anyway, the "destiny" God of fantasy books is visible throughout the series, and he doesn't die in the end.
Even Patricia McKillip's Riddle Master, with a "High One" subtly moving things in the background, has a yet Higher One, a "Destiny" never directly mentioned, that works all things out for the best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 12-06-2007 7:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 3:41 PM truthlover has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 32 of 69 (439621)
12-09-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by mark24
12-09-2007 7:35 AM


I doubt we will ever see a second film, this has been a bit of a bomb hasn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mark24, posted 12-09-2007 7:35 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 69 (439623)
12-09-2007 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by truthlover
12-09-2007 3:25 PM


Re: The Movie
The author doesn't kill God in the 3rd book, he kills a god.
Gosh, I guess I really remember it differently. They kill the figure who people are praying to, who's depicted as God by all the religions, who fits that God mold. And it's pretty clear that there's no God that steps up to replace him; all that's left is basically The Force, you know, the interconnectedness of all intelligence in the universes, or whatever.
That's essentially "sexy atheism", it's not really any kind of God.
The real God in fantasy books is the one never directly mentioned, who controls everything and makes sure that no matter what goes wrong, things end up the way they're supposed to.
The author, you mean? I wonder, if you take this view, if it would even be possible to write a fantasy novel where God doesn't exist.
Anyway, the "destiny" God of fantasy books is visible throughout the series, and he doesn't die in the end.
I guess if you're desperate to cram God into every interstitial space, I can't stop you. But the books I read were relentlessly hostile to the very idea of God. They kill God. That's pretty significant, in my view. Not just kill him, but recognize that he's long been impotent and irrelevant, and that the deeper truth is far beyond anything that could even be called God - and yet, so close that it's accessible to every person.
That human beings each have the power within them to direct their destiny, and that the destiny of all stems from everybody's individual choices.
That's the world of the atheist. I don't see how that can be appropriated by theism.
I think I'll go back and re-read the books over Christmas, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by truthlover, posted 12-09-2007 3:25 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by mark24, posted 12-09-2007 6:07 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 39 by truthlover, posted 12-10-2007 3:19 AM crashfrog has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 34 of 69 (439652)
12-09-2007 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by CK
12-09-2007 3:37 PM


Has it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by CK, posted 12-09-2007 3:37 PM CK has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 35 of 69 (439653)
12-09-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 3:41 PM


Re: The Movie
Hi crash,
The Authority wasn't god. He was the first angel created & passed himself off as god.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 3:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 6:29 PM mark24 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 36 of 69 (439664)
12-09-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mark24
12-09-2007 6:07 PM


Re: The Movie
The Authority wasn't god.
He was the God that everybody thought was God, and I don't recall anywhere in the book where there's any other God, so that's pretty much God as far as I'm concerned. Robes, long white beard; he fit the description anyway.
It's been a few years. I guess I'll see when I read them again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mark24, posted 12-09-2007 6:07 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by mark24, posted 12-09-2007 6:36 PM crashfrog has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 37 of 69 (439667)
12-09-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 6:29 PM


Re: The Movie
Crash,
He was the God that everybody thought was God
Yeah, but he wasn't, he was an imposter. The two angels that helped Lyra pointed out that he was the first angel created, which I took to mean the real god created him. Creation was created by god, not the Authority.
I'd prefer it if he was god, it would have been a much better ending, storming heaven & giving the prick a slap. I wondered why Pullman did this, creating a proxy "heavenly" enemy rather than the "real" thing? Pullman doesn't seem like he's scared to piss the religious off, he has spoken out against religion, it would seem a perfect platform to get his message across.
Wierd...
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 6:29 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 6:45 PM mark24 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 69 (439671)
12-09-2007 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by mark24
12-09-2007 6:36 PM


Re: The Movie
The two angels that helped Lyra pointed out that he was the first angel created, which I took to mean the real god created him.
I don't recall them saying that he was created by the "real God" at all, just that he was the first. And so he pretended to be the one that created all the others, because how would they know? Big cosmic snowjob.
I still don't see where that implies that there's a "real God". I assumed the first angel was the first intelligent being to arise throughout the universes, by evolution or whatever. Or by the multiverse's own need to be inhabited by intelligence. I never took Pullman to be saying that there was a real God who was actually the creator. I have no idea if his books support that interpretation or not without re-reading them.
By my reading the only God in the multiverses is killed. That he was an imposter doesn't really matter. He was all the God there was. Turned out, everybody was better off without the fucker.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 39 of 69 (439727)
12-10-2007 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 3:41 PM


Re: The Movie
That's essentially "sexy atheism", it's not really any kind of God.
Hmm. Maybe I'm a sexy atheist.
I guess if you're desperate to cram God into every interstitial space, I can't stop you.
While perhaps guilty of sexy atheism, I have to plead not guilty to this. It's there in fantasy books, and it's really out front, even though it's between the lines. Tolkien probably realized it when he wrote his books, and he wove destiny in on purpose, but the others do it just as much. Gollum is "meant" to survive, because he's needed to finish disposing of the ring.
In the same way, the subtle knife goes to the one it's supposed to go to. Will is meant to get it. Who decided that?
Eragon is supposed to get the egg. It's clearly not just chance that he was hunting in the spot the egg appeared. Only after he picked up the egg did the dragon choose him.
It's not like I have to do any cramming to find these things. They cry out to me.
That human beings each have the power within them to direct their destiny, and that the destiny of all stems from everybody's individual choices.
That's the world of the atheist. I don't see how that can be appropriated by theism.
One of my favorite lines in a movie is from The 13th Warrior. I forget the Norseman's name, but he says to Antonio Bandera, "Go dig a hole and hide in it, then, you will not live one minute longer." Admittedly, the Norse were theists, but that attitude is in pretty much all the fantasy novels I have ever read, and I like them, so I read a lot.
I would agree that in these books "human beings have the power within them to direct their destiny," but I do not agree that "the destiny of all stems from everyone's individual choices." There's always something intervening to overthrow the will of the evil one and his followers. In the case of HDM, the evil one is the one who dies in the end, and his magisterium lose.
it's not really any kind of God.
Gosh, it's the only kind of God I've got. The other kind doesn't seem to exist to me any more than he does to you, Richard Dawkins, or Philip Pullman.
I've been an atheist, crash, though not for very long. The only kind of God that can exist is one that isn't very understandable, and who hides himself often for some unknown reason that bothers pretty much all of us who are willing to look at life around us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 3:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by kuresu, posted 12-10-2007 12:51 PM truthlover has not replied
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2007 7:28 PM truthlover has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 40 of 69 (439791)
12-10-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by truthlover
12-10-2007 3:19 AM


Re: The Movie
Tolkein also built in a lot of chance into his books. Roughly half the stuff that happens, and some of the most important things even, are by chance.
It is a chance encounter that gives Gollum the ring. It is a chance encounter that Bilbo finds the ring in the dark. It is a chance event that Gollum slips. Remember? Yeah, he falls of the cliff edge because he is dancing with joy at getting the ring back.
The point? So much can ride on so few and so happenstance things and events. It all hangs in the balance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by truthlover, posted 12-10-2007 3:19 AM truthlover has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 41 of 69 (439799)
12-10-2007 1:56 PM


I view this series as a positive thing. As Atheism becomes more and more evangelical it will cause people to actually think about which faith it is that makes the most sense to them.
IMHO a great many people go through life without thinking very much about what it is that they believe. This is slowly changing in our post-modernistic age and these books will help accelerate that.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by nator, posted 12-11-2007 7:07 AM GDR has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 69 (439893)
12-10-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by truthlover
12-10-2007 3:19 AM


Re: The Movie
It's there in fantasy books, and it's really out front, even though it's between the lines. Tolkien probably realized it when he wrote his books, and he wove destiny in on purpose, but the others do it just as much.
I know that Tolkein did; his Middle Earth was pretty obviously theistic. But I can think of dozens of fantasy novels I've read where people may proclaim a belief in gods, but deities themselves don't appear to be active in the universe.
In the same way, the subtle knife goes to the one it's supposed to go to. Will is meant to get it. Who decided that?
I don't see that destiny mandates the existence of God.
There's always something intervening to overthrow the will of the evil one and his followers.
In HDM, though, it's people. People do the intervening.
The only kind of God that can exist is one that isn't very understandable, and who hides himself often for some unknown reason that bothers pretty much all of us who are willing to look at life around us.
Is that God? Or is that just your feeling that there should be a God - should be someone in charge to make sure the "right" things happen - running headlong into the reality of a universe that doesn't seem to have a God in it?
I find that the recognition that God doesn't exist makes God pretty easy to understand. When you realize that it's all pretty much just people talking to themselves and needing to see agency in chance, it begins to make a lot of sense. I don't find God incomprehensible at all. Taken as myth it all makes perfect sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by truthlover, posted 12-10-2007 3:19 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by truthlover, posted 12-11-2007 3:44 AM crashfrog has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 43 of 69 (439978)
12-11-2007 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
12-10-2007 7:28 PM


Re: The Movie
Excuse my posting patterns. I just got back from Myanmar, a 11.5 hour time difference. I'm not sleeping anywhere near normal hours.
Is that God? Or is that just your feeling that there should be a God
Hey, I'm still in the fantasy novel realm. I'm not talking about reality here. Whether I have a feeling that there should be a God applies to reality, not fantasy novels.
I don't see that destiny mandates the existence of God.
You don't? I can't argue with you, because I don't understand. To me, if something is destined, then some force/power/person destined it. If it is destined, and it overrides all attempts to go against destiny, then that force/power/person who destined it is the Almighty.
I've never questioned that. It seems obvious to me.
I guess I'm not even saying that destiny mandates the existence of God. In a book where "destiny" causes things to happen, Destiny *is* God.
Can you tell me why you don't think so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2007 7:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 69 (439996)
12-11-2007 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 6:45 PM


Re: The Movie
quote:
By my reading the only God in the multiverses is killed. That he was an imposter doesn't really matter. He was all the God there was. Turned out, everybody was better off without the fucker.
That was my take on the books as well. That God was an imposter because he wasn't "all that", not that he wasn't God.
...if that makes sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 6:45 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 69 (439997)
12-11-2007 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
12-10-2007 1:56 PM


quote:
As Atheism becomes more and more evangelical it will cause people to actually think about which faith it is that makes the most sense to them.
Or, if having any faith makes sense at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 12-10-2007 1:56 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 10:54 AM nator has replied

  
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