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Author Topic:   Is the bible the word of God or men?
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 196 of 309 (439744)
12-10-2007 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by IamJoseph
12-10-2007 3:18 AM


Re: SOME COMIC RELIEF MAY SAY IT BETTER.
Sigh.
I suppose, once one has lost every historical argument and seen his obsessive& ignorant view of history completely shot down, then it might feel good to find whatever quote one can dig-up to support his dis-credited view of history.
Dennis Miller,huh?
Wow!
You found a bigoted right-wing clown to repeat the stale old crap I completely shot down lol.
They told Harry Truman to "give em hell, Harry", for which he responded "I give them the truth, and the truth gives them hell".
I give Joseph history and then history gives him in-surmountable troubles.
NOTE I PROMISE I AM GOING TO *ATTEMPT* TO GET THIS DISCUSSION BACK ON TOPIC BY THE TIME I END THIS POST!
Interesting that you find ethnic cleansing comical.
"ha ha ha Palestinian Christians went from 30% down to about 3%, but they were all "fictional" so its really just funny! ha ha ha. Just because I sound like a complete looser isnt so bad because its just so funny.My name is IamJoseph and you can call me IamJoseph"
The fact that you are still allowed to post here is due to the fact that your mental-limitations result in posts that are "comical" to enough posters here.
I find your disruptions of every last historical discussing just plain disgusting though.Your dishonest tactics prevent any sort of credible presentation from the pro-Bible side (which I am on).
For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian
Joking about a people who were driven from their homes at gun-point.
A real first-class guy.
As if we havnt heard enough racist crap from right-wing bigots.
Anyway, here we go...
The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.
It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient
but is really a modern invention
Actually, as many simply want to return to their homes.Ask any Palestinian if they would be happy to have a full-right of return and live under a united-Israel and they will only start talking about the obvious fact that the Israeli authorities wont allow that to happen, but if it was their (Palestinians speaking) choice, then it would be fine.
Leave it to Dennis Miller to use the term "2000 years" as the period the entire land has been called Palestine.We couldnt expect him to see beyond the "Hadrian smeared the Jews" propaganda, and actually crack the history books.
Palestine was used for the entire land 2500 years ago, and the first historical reference to "Israel" as a designation for the entire land came at about the same time (Merenptah did not mention Israel as anything but one of several tribes in a small part of the land).
I would like for IamJoseph to preent the first ever non-Biblical reference to "Israel" as the name for THE ENTIRE LAND!
I would also like IamJoseph to present evidence for Israel being used for the land at-all (again the Merenptah reference didnt describe the land at all), even if just part.
Back to the Miller quote again.
The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.
It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient
but is really a modern invention
Let me explain something Dennis.
Actually, let me quote from a Hebrew Grammar to help educate you on gentilic adjectives brought by suffixes.
Introduction to Classical Hebrew
Donald Vance
4.9Gentilic Adjectives
English adjectives (which are themselves often used as nouns) can be formed from a proper name by adding various endings such as -er, -ite, -ian, o -n (e.g., New Yorker , Israelite, Bostonian, Tulsan , etc.)Such a construction is called a gentilic (from Greek genea "race, family")The Hebrew gentilic endind is hireq yod attached to a noun....
It goes on to use Hebrew font but it says essentially...
yisrael (Israel) ---> yisraeli (Israelite)
palesheth (Philistia) (or Palestina)
palishti (Philistine)
This doesnt mention it exactly here, but also posession can be used by simply using the "construct state" in hebrew which means that on can place a word (usually clear by its spelling and syntax), before the noun (such as a place) and it will indicate posession by the word "of"
Such as "sons of Israel" (doesnt have the gentilic ending).
Inhabitants of Phalistina (Exodus reference to Philistines which again is just the Hebrew palesheth without the suffix).
A person can be described as "of" a land simply by living there.
SEE PHILO QUOTE IN SIGNATURE.
Philo is known as "Philo the Jew". He simply says that Palestine "countries" people(specifically Jews from Christs time-which would include all people in Palestine including Christ!)
O and one more thing...
The Arabic "filastin" is just their transliteration of the name of the entire land (which came from Greeks at -first), and has nothing to do with some memory of the semitic word PLST which denotes Philistines.Arabs used the name of the ENTIRE land (Palestine)and not some Semitic word for Philistines (PLST).
And if a people are from the land then they are "of" the land. (these word games right-wingers play are retarded.They arent even remotely based on anything solid but only come from severe ignorance of nearly every aspect of history, scholarship, literacy, etc.)
"native Americans are a 'fictional people' because they didnt use our English term 'America' and because their language doesnt use our gentilic suffixes 'ians' or our way of saying 'of'"
(lol that CANT be an accurate quote of right-wingers EXACTLY because they wouldnt understand the basic linguistic concepts lol. It would go more like those "Pretend pals" or "they never existed")

Every Good Man Is Free
XII.(75) Morever Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which conuntries no slight portion of that most populous nation of the Jews inhabits.
-Philo of Alexandria-
(c30BCE to c40 CE)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by IamJoseph, posted 12-10-2007 3:18 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 197 of 309 (439747)
12-10-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by IamJoseph
12-10-2007 7:48 AM


Anwser me this clown!
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine41.html
In the south of Hebron, in the ruins of Susiah, one can see how in the course of two centuries a synagogue slowly evolved into a mosque, as the population of nearby caves abandoned the exclusionary faith of Babylonian wizards and adopted Islam. These shepherds still live there, in the same caves. In the last year, the Israeli army has twice tried to expel them to provide more room for new Jewish settlers from Brooklyn.
-Israel Shamir-
Are these people "Jews" or "Arabs"
You have made it clear that you support Palestinians to be cleansed of the land.
So, what racial definition would you place on these people?
Stop ranting about "pretend pals" and idiotic crap about Moses and Jesus. (It was by YOUR standards that Jesus as labeled as "Palestinian"-do you not have any integrity at all?)
Just anwser the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by IamJoseph, posted 12-10-2007 7:48 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 198 of 309 (439749)
12-10-2007 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by IamJoseph
12-10-2007 7:48 AM


When was Israel first mentioned as the entire land?
Since you made the argument that Palestine wasnt used for the entire land till the post 2nd Temple people as your reason for the land being a fictional designation, then how about we get back on topic?
I have proven palestine was used no later than around 500BCE for the entire land.
Now, I want you to tell me when was the earliest reference to Israel as the designation for the entire land.
Your refernece to Kenneth Kicthen's book was a complete farce in which you put words in his mouth (did you even read his book).He never presented Merenptah's reference to "Israel" as signifing (any!)land-especially not the entire land!
You made the issue of historical references to "Palestine" for the entire land of Canaan/Israel as somehow important. (even though you were ignorant as f**k on the historical sources and history itself)
So now I ask you when was the first reference to "Israel" (in ANY historical source, not just western!) as the designation for the entire land.
Then when was the 2nd.
What were the respective dates?
Surely, considering your claims& obsessions, you can name the first two references to "Israel" as the entire land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by IamJoseph, posted 12-10-2007 7:48 AM IamJoseph has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 199 of 309 (439801)
12-10-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by IamJoseph
12-10-2007 7:48 AM


IAJ writes:
Its hardly a question, leave aside being simple........
Nice rant, but still no answer!
Now please answer the question. Do you think that Native Americans should have America back?
I can't make it any easier for you. YES or NO?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by IamJoseph, posted 12-10-2007 7:48 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 5:26 AM RickJB has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 200 of 309 (439982)
12-11-2007 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by RickJB
12-10-2007 2:27 PM


quote:
Nice rant, but still no answer!
I did answer, you are escaping your own premise. If the natives of America is your issue, their position is the same as Jews. It is the Pretend Pals who squatted on land they never owned - that they stole a 2000 year Jewish name, call Moses a muslim and all history as reversed - is proof of their deviousness only: they get away with because of those who condone and support their lies. Unlike the Europeans, Jews returned to their land. How have I not answered - maybe you too think Jews are the ancesters of Muslims, and do not exist anymore?
Christians for Fair Witness has produced this document:
The Church’s Witness on Issues in the Arab/Israeli Conflict
http://www.christianfairwitness.com/...bIsraeliConflict.html
The Church's Witness on Issues in the Arab/Israeli Conflict
Introduction
This is a discussion of the witness of the American Churches with regard to the Arab/Israeli conflict. Christians for Fair Witness on the Middle East is concerned that a bias against the state of Israel has emerged within many of the mainstream Christian denominations. This prejudice is reflected in a troubling willingness to lay the blame for the conflict in the Middle East on Israel's shoulders while saying very little about any culpability the Palestinians or Arab nations might have. An example of this bias is found in the Divestment and other resolutions that have been passed by various Protestant denominations since 2004. In these resolutions, history seems to begin after the 1967 Six-day war ended, and the "occupation" and Israeli policies are focused on as the sole cause of the conflict. Some of the Christian commentary on the conflict has become quite extreme, with accusations of apartheid, Nazi-like behavior and attempts at ethnic cleansing, all aimed at Israel. This does not serve the cause of peace and justice.
In the past year there has been an increase in attacks on the fundamental legitimacy of a Jewish state. That begins to send out very serious warning signals.
While some of this we understand is rooted at least partly in a wholesome, righteous, gospel centered and legitimate concern for Palestinian suffering, it incorrectly assumes that the party suffering the most at a given moment is the most innocent party and it is flawed in its refusal to acknowledge the complexity of the situation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by RickJB, posted 12-10-2007 2:27 PM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Nimrod, posted 12-11-2007 6:10 PM IamJoseph has replied

dogmanomore
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 12-11-2007


Message 201 of 309 (440037)
12-11-2007 10:01 AM


I believe nothing in this universe can happen without the consent of God, even what we consider to be bad things. God has consented in the creation of books including the christian collection of scriptures that has come to be called Bible.
So in that very limited sense, the christian Bible is a collection of words of God.
But so is Mein Kampf written by Herr Hitler.
There can be no doubt that the texts of the christian scriptures we now call Bible were written by men. No angel or spirit can hold a pen and write things down, I think one should not use irrational arguments to prove something or make a point. So the christian Bible, like any other collection of religious or non-religious scriptures, is a collection of words by men also.
More interesting though is the question whether God wants the christian Bible to be read, whether He is happy with its contents. What does God wish us to become and how does this relate to the scriptures in the so-called christian Bible.
I believe God wants to draw us closer to Him, that He wishes us to be liberated from all our limitations and return to our origins in Him (sometimes called the "Kingdom or Rule of God"). That's all he want from us, nothing else, He wants that we should realize our origin and return to God Himself.
Many spiritually more or less realized persons have made contributions to the scriptures that were included in the so-called christian Bible, one of whom was Jezus.
Many of those contributors were much less or not at all spiritually realized persons and have (especially in the christian section) added poor or even malicious texts or have spoilt spiritually valuable texts for their own poor or petty aims.
That's why I would say that the Bible as a whole is not a very spiritually elevating collection of texts and you have to be very carefull which texts or parts of texts you study or ignore.
If you want to know the teachings of Lord Jesus, it is best to study a proper reconstruction of what He really said. That is much better than reading texts that were sanctioned by an institution that Lord Jesus would most certainly condemn for having taken a wrong and ignorant direction.
Edited by dogmanomore, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 202 of 309 (440158)
12-11-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by IamJoseph
12-11-2007 5:26 AM


Cant drop the issue? Then actually anwser it for once!
Why keep bringing up an issue in which you have literally ignored hundreds of hsitorical facts?
And have presented no evidence to support your argument (not that there is any!).
All you have done is repeated your stale old (swallowed and barfed out)propaganda (shot down 1 trillion times) which you havnt ever defended or even explained.
Here we go again...
-IamJoseph-
It is the pretend Pals who squatted on land they never owned-that they stole a 2000 year old Jewish name,call Moses a muslim...
....
Have I not anwsered-maybe you too think Jews are ancestors of Muslims, and do not exist anymore?
You havnt anwsered anything.You just keep repeating crap and your own false accusations.Nobody said Jews do not exist anymore.Where do you get that crap?
Just because Palestinians are ancestors of all people in the land-including Jews- does not mean that anything is taken away from the ancestry of those who kept the Jewish religion.
Just because there were Palestinian Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam does not mean those who kept Judaism are not Jewish.
The only problem here is that you have a dispensationalist-bred hatred of Palestinians and Arabs , and simply cant stand to see the fact's of history.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine41.html
In the south of Hebron, in the ruins of Susiah, one can see how in the course of two centuries a synagogue slowly evolved into a mosque, as the population of nearby caves abandoned the exclusionary faith of Babylonian wizards and adopted Islam. These shepherds still live there, in the same caves. In the last year, the Israeli army has twice tried to expel them to provide more room for new Jewish settlers from Brooklyn.
-Israel Shamir-
ILL REPEAT THE QUESTION!
Are these people "Jews" or "Arabs".
You can deny these people their humanity and their history, but doesnt the Bible demand that we should bless the children of Abraham?
These are Muslims who are descended of the tribe of Judah.
The dispensationalists tell us that the Bible predicts war between the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel and "heathen peoples" which they would define as "Palestinian" or "Arab" Christians and Muslims.
NOW FACTS OF HISTORY!
The problem is that the people of Israel/Palestine-including members of *ALL* three faiths- have ncestry that stretches back to the 12 tribes-especially Judah!
(thus dispensationalists "prophecy" is completely ignorant and out of sync with anything on this planet)
You can ignore history all you want.
You can even create straw-men like your repeated accusations of Muslims calling Moses a Muslim (btw, what the heck does that have to do with anything?! Show me where Muslims called Moses a Muslim, then show me where they said that had anything to do with taking away history of Jews and especially the issue of palestine/Israel.You keep repeating this accusation, so can you actually show us what the heck is hads to do with this issue FOR ONCE?)
And, PLEASE, dont try and bring modern-day politics into the discussion! I have avoided talking much about the current conflict, and attempted to keep this discussion on historical issues from the past. Dont discuss anything post 1948 please.
You cant even anwser the historical issues already raised(including all the questions I offered you on this off-topic "Palestine" side-discussion you started & wont end).
Can you actually offer some sort of historical argument (of once!) that these "Pretend Pals" havnt lived in the land for some length of time (you never present any historical argument so I cant really figure your logic-if any!)
What are the standards anyway?
(I will highlight this section so Joseph doesnt miss the abobe questions which he should anwser-like his Moses straw man)
What are the standards for Palestinians human-rights or evidence of hsitorical existence in the land?
The dispensationalist standard is racial (though they never have any evidence Palestinians are "squatters" beyond "they are Muslims or Christians so they OBVIOUSLY CANT HAVE *JEWISH* ANCESTORS").
What are these arbitrary standards anyway?
How many years should Palestinians have lived in the land (or their ancestors) to be legit human-beings worthy of rights?
100 years?
500 years?
1000 years?
2000 years?
O and how many ancestors should they require to meet the criterion?
Even if they were to meet this arbitrary,not to mention as yet un-defined , standard then is there any way they can have rights in the land if not of Jewish ancestry?
Since all Palestinians are part-Jewish (in ancestry), then what percentage of "Jewish blood" do you require IamJoseph?
How would you implement an objective test to measure their amount of Jewish ancestry?(DNA?)
If DNA is the yard-stick then how would you go about running the tests?
If not DNA, then would you, IamJospeh (as well as other dispensationalist "prophecy experts"), actually consider historical evidence FOR ONCE?
If you would be open to researching historical evidences, then what kind of court would you institute to hear the presentation of historical evidence(s) ?
Most dispensationalists seem to have a primitive mind-set , so its hard to have and credible criteria or a single criterion to respond to.
(And Im not *trying* to insulting primitives lol)
(I CAN see why primitive peoples might be insulted however)
Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 5:26 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 9:46 PM Nimrod has replied
 Message 205 by IamJoseph, posted 12-12-2007 5:21 AM Nimrod has replied
 Message 206 by IamJoseph, posted 12-12-2007 5:53 AM Nimrod has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 203 of 309 (440203)
12-11-2007 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by dogmanomore
12-11-2007 10:01 AM


It does not matter that it was written by men or presented as inspiration and revelation. The important thing is if it is true and correct, and what ended up as being harkened by humanity. The test is not if a scripture's adherants follow their scripture's message and laws, but if others not of that belief also follow it, and enshrine it in all their institutions. Here, I have found the OT laws as proven itself - it is harkened by all the world, including atheists.
Proven facts transcends all and any belief: no one can say they 'believe' the sun won't shine tomorrow - but they get away saying something which cannot be proven. If there can be a singular law agreed as God's law, it is one which precedes all moral/ethical premsis, and this refers to truthfulness - which is greater than truth, as truth can be subjective and elusive. If there is truthfulness, it is the best a human can do, and truth will find its own way.
The law of 'NOT TAKING THE NAME IN VAIN', refers to HONESTY, and precedes all other laws. Here, a bad christian is not better than a good muslim, or vice verse - regardless that they 'believe' they are superior or protected from wrng doings. Just as a problem in a machine will make it disfunction, so too every lie or falsehoods will eventually come undone. There is absolute credence here, and it is greater than any belief. The first law is Honesty:
'A FALSEHOOD AND THE HOLY ONE CANNOT ABIDE TOGETHER'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by dogmanomore, posted 12-11-2007 10:01 AM dogmanomore has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 204 of 309 (440206)
12-11-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Nimrod
12-11-2007 6:10 PM


Re: Cant drop the issue? Then actually anwser it for once!
quote:
Just because Palestinians are ancestors of all people in the land-including Jews
Totally false, and the very antithesis of the truth. Jews have always stuck to their own belief for 4000 years, and battled with super-powers such as ancient Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Christianity and most of all - with Islam. They braved what none else did, and there is nothing a Muslim can teach a jew.
There is technically, no such thing as Islamic law: a law is what is accepted by the world, and there is not a single law Islam succeeded in giving the world. Name us one islamic law followed by the world? I can name you 613 OT laws followed by the world at large, and those who do not follow those laws are deemed outside of the law [Lawless]
Jews are surely not the ancesters of Muslims, and nor are any Muslims Palestinian. Moses was not a Muslim, and today's Arabs have no evidential thread connecting them with Ishmael, but emerged 1500 years later, and Islam appeared 2500 years later. The pre-islamic peoples never followed the laws of Abraham or Moses, but followed paganism till Islam emerged: they learnt about history and laws from the Jews when Babylon invaded and exile them - nothing comes from Islam.
The teachings that Jews are now the Muslims is a horrific, genocidal falsehood, designed to rob the Jewish homeland, its scriptures and all Jewish heritage, because once Islam thought Jews are no more and cannot be a nation again. They were wrong!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Nimrod, posted 12-11-2007 6:10 PM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Nimrod, posted 12-12-2007 1:28 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 205 of 309 (440228)
12-12-2007 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Nimrod
12-11-2007 6:10 PM


A GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
quote:
And have presented no evidence to support your argument (not that there is any!).
Maybe you do not want to hear the truth - I posted many evidences. Everything I posted, point for point, is verifiable and backed by independent, unbiased scholars. Like this one:
Quote: "The Palestinian people does not exist" - Arab Muslim statement
Quoite: "Palestinian" referred to Jews. The Palestine Post, Palestine Land Development Company, Palestine Philharmonic and other similarly named institutions, all were Jewish enterprises"
Quote: "The related claim that Palestinian Arabs are not only an historically distinct people but also an ancient one are questionable as well."
Quote: "The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) implicitly recognized evidence to the contrary when, after 1948, it granted refugee status to any Arab who had resided in what was now Israel for a minimum of two years."
Quote: "Biblical Philistines: Historically, the biblical Philistines were not Arabs but rather Mediterranean sea people, whose culture was influenced by that of Crete. Landing in southwestern Canaan about 1200 BCE (Before the Common Era), they battled intermittently with the Israelites of the Judean and Samarian hill country"
Quote: "The substitution of "Palestine" for Judea, land of the Jews, was an early psychological warfare maneuver. After the second Jewish revolt, 132 - 135 CE (Common Era), Rome dispersed many of the survivors andto erase their connection to the landrenamed Judea "Palaestina."
Who Are the Palestinians?
At DePaul, Don't Ask and Don't Tell
Who Are the Palestinians? At DePaul, Don’t Ask and Don’t Tell | CAMERA
by Eric Rozenman
Historically, Palestinian Arabs were not a distinct nationality. Though not all Muslims are terrorists, most major international terrorism today is committed by Muslims.
For making these two assertions, DePaul University adjunct professor Thomas Klocek was suspended fall quarter, 2004, then suspended without pay winter quarter, 2005.
Quote: "DePaul instructor had asserted instead that the main reason for today's wave of Islamic terrorism is not poverty or despair but
the terrifying brainwashing suffered by most of the Arab youth at the hands of "religious clerics" and particularly at the hands of the extremists with backward views. [These "clerics"] nourish the Muslim youth with various kinds of racist views and destructive extremist principles, and nurse them with hostility, hatred, and resentment towards other people and towards members of other divine religions."
Who Are the Palestinians?
"Palestinian" today typically applies to Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza Strip and to those who fled what became Israel in 1948 and their descendants. Often it also covers the Palestinian majority in Jordan, and sometimes even Israeli Arabs. Essentially, these are 20th century usages, like the adjectives Soviet and Yugoslav.
Although a distinct Palestinian nationalism is taken for granted internationally today, the notion of a Palestinian people separate and distinct from neighboring Arabs is relatively recent. Indeed, Zahir Muhsein, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee, told the Dutch newspaper Trau on March 31, 1977:
The Palestinian people does not exist . . . . The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.
In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
Muhsein emphasized a point often made. The First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations in Jerusalem in 1919, called to choose delegates to the Paris Peace Conference, declared:
We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic, and geographic bonds.
In 1947, the United Nations was considering the second partition of British Mandatory Palestine (Transjordannow Jordan and 77.5 percent of the total areahad been separated in 1921 and Jews forbidden to settle there). The Arab Higher Committee informed the General Assembly that "Palestine was part of the province of Syria" and "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political identity."
Early in the century a few Christian Arabs did promote the idea of Palestinian Arab nationalism to secure the social-political equality that pan-Islamic movements might deny them. But generally, after the collapse of Ottoman Turkish rule in World War I and subsequent British ascendancy, "Palestinian" referred to Jews. The Palestine Post, Palestine Land Development Company, Palestine Philharmonic and other similarly named institutions, all were Jewish enterprises, manifestations of the Zionist effort to renew Jewish sovereignty in eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel.
The PLO Charter, as rewritten in 1968, varies the definition of Palestinian in three separate articles. Article One declares that "... the people of Palestine is part of the Arab nation" while Article Five claims "the Palestinians are the Arab nationals who were living permanently in Palestine until 1947 ... [or] anyone born of a Palestinian father after that, whether within Palestine or outside it ...." Article Six allows that Jewsat least some of themcould be Palestinians too: "Jews who were living permanently in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinian."
In fact, today's Palestinians, especially the large majority who are Sunni Muslims, have no significant religious, linguistic, cultural, or national differences from their brethren in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and even Egypt and Saudi Arabia. This is not surprising since many of their ancestors migrated from those areas in the 19th and 20th centuries.
Egyptians arrived with Mehmet Ali's conquest in the 1830s and stayed. Hence the common Palestinian family or clan name, "al-Masri," meaning "the Egyptian." Later in the 19th century, Turkish overlords imported non-Arab Muslims from Sudan and the Balkans to western Palestine. Arabs from the Arabian peninsula settled in the Hebron Hills.
As Zionist Jews built the foundation for a national home, economic and health conditions improved in western Palestine. Many Arabs migrated, often illegally, from Transjordan, Syria, and Lebanon, and internally from the West Bank and Gaza Strip into what would become Israel to take advantage of the higher standards. Between 1922 and 1947, for example, the non-Jewish populations in Haifa, Jerusalem, and Jaffa grew many times faster than accounted for by natural increase alone.
The related claim that Palestinian Arabs are not only an historically distinct people but also an ancient one are questionable as well. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) implicitly recognized evidence to the contrary when, after 1948, it granted refugee status to any Arab who had resided in what was now Israel for a minimum of two years.
Biblical Philistines
Historically, the biblical Philistines were not Arabs but rather Mediterranean sea people, whose culture was influenced by that of Crete. Landing in southwestern Canaan about 1200 BCE (Before the Common Era), they battled intermittently with the Israelites of the Judean and Samarian hill country until finally being erased from history by Babylonian conquerors late in the seventh century.
The substitution of "Palestine" for Judea, land of the Jews, was an early psychological warfare maneuver. After the second Jewish revolt, 132 - 135 CE (Common Era), Rome dispersed many of the survivors andto erase their connection to the landrenamed Judea "Palaestina." Hence the derivation of the Arabic word Filastin, although Arabs did not settle west of the Jordan River in large numbers until the Muslim conquest 500 years later in the seventh century C.E.
"Palestine," referring to an independent state supposedly limited to the West Bank and Gaza, became widespread only well after 1967 as a reaction to Israel's conquest of those Jordanian and Egyptian occupied territories in a war of self-defense. If Israel and the Palestinian Authority eventually negotiate a settlement that realizes President Bush's vision of "two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, side-by-side and at peace," the citizens of the latter will be able to claim something newan actualized separate Palestinian national identity.
International Terrorists
And what of Klocek's other apparently taboo statement, that while not all Muslims are terrorists, all international terrorists are Muslims? Exaggerated, but resting on fact. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists. But from the World Trade Center to nightclubs in Bali and the Underground in London, from Israeli buses to Spanish trains, a school in Beslan to a synagogue in Tunisia, throughout Algeria, Iraq, in Sudan, Pakistan and elsewhere, the perpetrators of most contemporary terrorist massacresincluding those with Muslim victimshave been Muslims.
Suppose the DePaul instructor had asserted instead that the main reason for today's wave of Islamic terrorism is not poverty or despair but
the terrifying brainwashing suffered by most of the Arab youth at the hands of "religious clerics" and particularly at the hands of the extremists with backward views. [These "clerics"] nourish the Muslim youth with various kinds of racist views and destructive extremist principles, and nurse them with hostility, hatred, and resentment towards other people and towards members of other divine religions.
Would that claim by columnist Abdallah Rashid, writing in the United Arab Emirates' daily Al-Itihad or similar points by other Arab and Muslim writershave been out-of-bounds at DePaul?
The university's allegation that Klocek behaved unprofessionally, absent proof at a formal hearing, allows the school to evade the requirements of free speech, academic inquiry, and truth that it claims to uphold. That's especially so given Dean Dumbleton's article in the DePaulia, implying that Klocek had been suspended because "the students' perspective was dishonored and their freedom demeaned. Individuals were deeply insulted."
No doubt claims by Professor Finkelstein have "deeply insulted" people. No doubt allegations by the Students for Justice in Palestine likewise "dishonor the persepctive" of others. Like any university worthy of the name, DePaul should emphasize intellectual inquiry, not "victim group" politics. Fair play for Thomas Klocek is a prerequisite.
Copyright © 2005 by the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. All rights reserved. This column may be reprinted without prior permission.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Nimrod, posted 12-11-2007 6:10 PM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Nimrod, posted 12-12-2007 12:56 PM IamJoseph has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 206 of 309 (440229)
12-12-2007 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Nimrod
12-11-2007 6:10 PM


JERUSALEM WAS NEVER AN ISLAMIC CAPITAL.
quote:
These are Muslims who are descended of the tribe of Judah.
Prove anything you - its all gibberish. The claim that Jews converted to islam is a horrific, genodical lie. Jerusalem is a wholly Jewish/Hebrew establiishment - since 2000 years before Islam existed.
Did the muslims learn any Hebrew from the Jews? Of cource not! I cannot see a single reason for Jews to be impressed by anything in Islam: because Islam has NOTHING to offer jews. There is nothing in the Quran which can enlighten Jews - there is really no islamic laws which are not already contained in the OT, nor would Jews agree to change anything in their scriptures: they did not with many mighty nations before Islam, and lived in Arabia, Arab and Islamic states since 586 BCE till the recent 1950's: none converted, and they were persecuted and had to flee to Israel - their original homeland, after the Jews wrote the Talmud and the Book of Esther in Babylon before islam emerged 1500 years later, which is still active with jews. Islam was rejected by Jews even while all the peoples were forcefully converted in Arabia, India and Asia. Islam has distorted Ishmael for Isaac, and teaches its peoples Moses was a Muslim. and Jesus was a Palestinian.
Quote: "Several Qur'anic verses were subsequently construed to be obliquely referring to Jerusalem. The Temple Mount was renamed by Muslims the Noble Sanctuary (al Haram al Sharif)."
BACKGROUNDER: Jerusalem
by Ricki Hollander
Since 1004 BCE, when King David established Jerusalem as the capital of his kingdom, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in Jerusalem, the holiest city in Judaism. Following the building of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the designation of other holy sites by Constantine the Great in 333 CE, Jerusalem became a destination of Christian pilgrimages. During Umayyad rule from 661 to 750 CE, the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the site where the Jewish Temples had once stood, and Jerusalem became the third holiest city in Islam.
Jews have constituted the largest ethnic group in Jerusalem since 1820. According to Yehoshua Ben-Arieh, "In the second half of the nineteenth century and at the end of that century, Jews comprised the majority of the population of the Old City ..." (Jerusalem in the Nineteenth Century). Martin Gilbert reports that 6,000 Jews resided in Jerusalem in 1838, compared to 5,000 Muslims and 3,000 Christians (Jerusalem: Rebirth of a City). Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1853 "assessed the Jewish population of Jerusalem in 1844 at 7,120, making them the biggest single religious group in the city." (Terence Prittie, Whose Jerusalem?). And others estimated the number of Jewish residents of Jerusalem at the time as even higher. Until about 1860, Jerusalem residents lived almost exclusively within the walls of the Old City, in east Jerusalem. Between 1860 and 1948, Jews lived in both eastern and western Jerusalem.
Jerusalem in Jewish Tradition
Jerusalem, Judaism’s holiest city, is mentioned hundreds of times in the Hebrew Bible. It was the capital city of ancient Jewish kingdoms and home to Judaism’s holiest Temple (Beit HaMikdash). Jews from all over the ancient world would make pilgrimages to the Beit HaMikdash three times a year to participate in worship and festivities, as commanded in the Torah. Jerusalem and the Beit HaMikdash have remained the focus of Jewish longing, aspiration, and prayers. Daily prayers (said while facing Jerusalem and the Temple Mount) and grace after meals include multiple supplications for the restoration of Jerusalem and the Beit HaMikdash. Jews still maintain the 9th day of the Hebrew month of Av, the date on which both the First and Second Temples were destroyed, as a day of mourning. The Jewish wedding ceremony concludes with the chanting of the biblical phrase, “If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning,” and the breaking of a glass by the groom to commemorate the destruction of the Temples. And Yom Kippur services and the Passover Seder conclude each year with the phrase “Next Year in Jerusalem.” Model of the Second Jewish Temple
The Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism. The Temple was built, according to Jewish tradition, on the Even Hashtiya, the foundation stone upon which the world was created. This is considered the epicenter of Judaism, where the Divine Presence (Shechina) rests, where the biblical Isaac was brought for sacrifice, where the Holy of Holies and Ark of the Covenant housing the Ten Commandments once stood, and where the Temple was again rebuilt in 515 BCE before being destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. The Temple Mount is also known as Mount Moriah (Har HaMoriah), mentioned frequently in the Bible.
The Western Wall (Kotel Hama’aravi, known simply as the Wall or Kotel) is the remnant of the outer retaining wall built by Herod to level the ground and expand the area housing the Second Jewish Temple. Its holiness derives from its proximity to the Temple site and specifically its proximity to the Western Wall of the Temple’s Holy of Holies (Kodesh Hakodashim---the inner sanctuary that housed the Ark of the Covenant-the Aron HaBrit-and where the High Priest-Kohen Gadol--alone was permitted to enter on Yom Kippur). According to Midrashic sources, the Divine Presence never departed from the Western wall of the Temple’s Holy of Holies. For the last several hundred years, Jews have prayed at Herod’s Western Wall because it was the closest accessible place to Judaism’s holiest site.
Jerusalem in Muslim Tradition
Jerusalem assumed significance as an Islamic holy site during the rule of the Umayyads (661-750 CE). Facing challenge to his power from Ibn al-Zubayr, a rebel who controlled Mecca, the Syrian-based Caliph Abd al Malik sought to consolidate his leadership by establishing a place of worship for his followers in Jerusalem in place of Mecca. He built the Dome of the Rock (Masjid Qubbat As Sakhrah) in 688-691 CE on the spot where the Jewish Temples had stood.
Dome of the Rock
Two decades later, in 715 CE, the Umayyads built another mosque on the Temple Mount which they named the Furthest Mosque (Masjid al Aqsa ) to connote the “furthest mosque” alluded to in the Quran (17:1). This was the metaphorical spot from which Mohammed was said to have ascended to heaven in a vision (referred to in Arabic as the Mi’raj) after a night journey from Mecca (the Isra) on a winged steed named Al Buraq.
Although the Quran does not mention Jerusalem or the Temple Mount, the designation of a concrete site to what had been until then just a figurative name provided Muslims with a new religious focus. Several Qur'anic verses were subsequently construed to be obliquely referring to Jerusalem. The Temple Mount was renamed by Muslims the Noble Sanctuary (al Haram al Sharif).
Over the years, Jerusalem’s stature as an Islamic holy city has waxed and waned. During the period between 1948 and 1967 when under Jordanian control, Jerusalem and its holy sites were largely neglected by the Muslim world. Since Israel gained control of East Jerusalem and reunified the city, however, there has been a growing attempt by Palestinians to marshal the religious fervor of the Arab and Muslim world in order to wrest Jerusalem from Israel.
Jerusalem in Christian Tradition
Church of the Holy Sepulchre
According to Christian tradition, many of the events in Jesus's life and ministry took place in the Holy City. The Last Supper, referring to the final meal shared by Jesus with his disciples before his death, is believed to have taken place in the “Upper Room”or Coenaculum, on the second floor of a building over King David’s tomb on Mount Zion.
The Garden of Gethsemane ” according to the New Testament, the place where Jesus suffered for the sins of the world the night before he was crucified ” is located at the bottom of the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. On the Mount of Olives is the Shrine of the Ascension, where Jesus is believed to have ascended to heaven. (It is now run by Muslims and a dome covers the structure.) The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, built by Constantine the Great to mark the site of the Resurrection, stands within the walls of the Old City. The remains of Golgotha, the hill upon which Jesus was crucified, is believed to lie inside the church. The church houses priests from the Roman Catholic Church and from numerous Eastern Orthodox traditions. The Via Dolorosa, or “Way of Sorrows,” leading to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, is the traditional path taken by Christians pilgrims to symbolically relive the events of Jesus’ passion. Because of Jesus's historical connection to these and other locations, Jerusalem is venerated by Christians throughout the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Nimrod, posted 12-11-2007 6:10 PM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Nimrod, posted 12-12-2007 1:10 PM IamJoseph has replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 207 of 309 (440277)
12-12-2007 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by IamJoseph
12-12-2007 5:21 AM


responce to #205
All those internet-garbage "scholars" were responded to ALREADY! (in multiple threads!)
Didnt you study the educational material I presented from scholars?
You display an ignorance of history at its most fundamental level."Gee, if its on the internet then it MUSTTTTT be true!"
Why should I respond to these again, when I already have?
You dont even understand the historical context to the quotes of SOME palestinian Arabs,nor do you seem to want to; so why even bother posting here?
(Plus I saw another poster in the Bible Study forum ask you for evidence of quote's on the Israeli/Palestinian issue which you seem to have made up or lifted from somebody who made it up-specifically a "quote" of a Pope.Which "prophecy expert" fertilized your mind at a fundi sperm-bank? Hal Lindesey? John Hagee? )
This whole subject is off-topic, and even if it were on-topic , then you clearly couldnt understand the complicated issues (though your dis-honesty also affects your reasoning powers to an extent).

Every Good Man Is Free
XII.(75) Morever Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which conuntries no slight portion of that most populous nation of the Jews inhabits.
-Philo of Alexandria-
(c30BCE to c40 CE)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by IamJoseph, posted 12-12-2007 5:21 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 208 of 309 (440286)
12-12-2007 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by IamJoseph
12-12-2007 5:53 AM


Re: JERUSALEM WAS NEVER AN ISLAMIC CAPITAL.
Another IamJoseph straw man!
"JERUSALEM WAS NEVER AN ISLAMIC CAPITAL."
-Nimrod-
These are Muslims who are descended of the tribe of Judah.
-IamJoseph-
Prove anything you - its all gibberish. The claim that Jews converted to islam is a horrific, genodical lie.
I already presented the undisputed evidence that there were Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam.
Take it up with your spec-ed teacher if you can't read the abundant documentary evidence (not to mention dozens of U.S. Court decisions from the 1800s and 1900s- remember the evidence I presented? You got all confused and though it refered to a "1790" decision , then side-stepped the issue with blather!)
-IamJoseph-
Jerusalem is a wholly Jewish/Hebrew establiishment - since 2000 years before Islam existed
Lol, cant you even read your own pastings!
Read YOUR OWN POST clown!
From the supposed time of King David (you presented no evidence that he reigned in Jerusalem from 1004 to 971!) till Islam was 1600 years!
And Jews were not the majority of Jerusalem (hardly any were there after killings during "Christian" control) even in 638 BCE though Muslims allowed them to return and prosper.
You own post shows that Muslims were the majority till the 1800's.
And it was Muslims who allowed Jews to return.
(Muslims dont deny Jewish history, infact they feel it the Hebrew Bible is based on a revelation from God though with transmission errors.Muslims feel Jews were spiritualy superior to the pre-Islamic pagan Arabs)
I am not wasting any more time on the rest of your straw men.
Suffice to say that Palestinians lived in Jerusalem and they are human-beings.
The issues have proven to be way over your head.
Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by IamJoseph, posted 12-12-2007 5:53 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by IamJoseph, posted 12-12-2007 8:50 PM Nimrod has not replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 209 of 309 (440295)
12-12-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by IamJoseph
12-11-2007 9:46 PM


Re: Cant drop the issue? Then actually anwser it for once!
-Nimrod-
Just because Palestinians are ancestors of all people in the land-including Jews
-IamJoseph-
Totally false, and the very antithesis of the truth. Jews have always stuck to their own belief for 4000 years, and battled with super-powers such as ancient Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Christianity and most of all - with Islam. They braved what none else did, and there is nothing a Muslim can teach a jew.
I suppose no Anglo-Saxons took the religon of the Britons?
Thereafter,no Saxons left in Germany took the religion of France?
Your static and simple mindset is a case study in retardation.
You cant handle the historical issues, so just drop them.
-IamJoseph-
There is technically, no such thing as Islamic law: a law is what is accepted by the world, and there is not a single law Islam succeeded in giving the world. Name us one islamic law followed by the world? I can name you 613 OT laws followed by the world at large, and those who do not follow those laws are deemed outside of the law {Lawless}
You cant even handle the commandent that forbids bearing false-witness.
Work on that one.
Stop putting words in peoples mouth.
Its a false testament. (your projections and accusations)
-IamJoseph-
Jewss are surely not the ancesters of Muslims, and nor are any Muslims Palestinian. Moses was not a Muslim, and today's Arabs have no evidential thread connecting them with Ishmael, but emerged 1500 years later, and Islam appeared 2500 years later. The pre-islamic peoples never followed the laws of Abraham or Moses, but followed paganism till Islam emerged: they learnt about history and laws from the Jews when Babylon invaded and exile them - nothing comes from Islam.
The question (you didnt quote) about "Moses being a Muslim" was directed at you and an attempt for you to explain this accusation you make. (ie "those evil Muslims keep saying moses was a Muslim to rob Jews")
I asked for evidence.
Then I asked wht it has to do with anything related to Palestinians rights?
This is your responce?
More straw men and false accusations?
Muslims (specifically Arabs-meaning from the Arabian penninsula) know very well that they were pagan peoples before Islam.They even call it their "age of ignorance".
Why dont you actually make an honest argument?
You know NOTHING about Islamic or Jewish history.
Just be honest.
And what does it have to do with the Palestinians rights? <-nothing!
The teachings that Jews are now the Muslims is a horrific, genocidal falsehood, designed to rob the Jewish homeland, its scriptures and all Jewish heritage, because once Islam thought Jews are no more and cannot be a nation again. They were wrong!
"the teaching that Saxons are now the British is a horrific, genocidal falsehood, designed to rob the German homeland, its history and all Germanic heritage, because once Brit's thought Germans are no more and cannot be a nation again. They were wrong!"
Yea tell them Archie!
Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 9:46 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by IamJoseph, posted 12-12-2007 8:23 PM Nimrod has not replied
 Message 211 by IamJoseph, posted 12-12-2007 8:40 PM Nimrod has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 210 of 309 (440378)
12-12-2007 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Nimrod
12-12-2007 1:28 PM


FIRST LAW: WHERE THERE IS NO TRUTH - THERE IS NO REAL BELIEF.
This simple letter exposes this conflict has nothing to do with Pretend Pals or land. The Arabs are consumed with hate and guilt way before Islam happened. I have read historical archives of this people, how they persecuted all peoples with imagined superiority and insecure pride, while being incapable of tieing their own sandals. Non muslims were not allowed to stand on a ground higher then them: anyone caught sitting on a horse when a muslim passed begat lashes; a non-muslim could not testify against murder or theft of property; a non-muslim cannot own land in Arabia. Is it any wonder that democrasy is disdained - equal rights for the stranger as the inhabitant, a majestic law in the OT - is deemed distorted!
I predict the next religion which will tumble in a heap and thud is Islam - and it will be because of their crimes exposed by Zion. Eventually, all the world will see this is not a religion, being the antithesis of Godliness and Godly laws of ethics and morals. It is erected solely on robbery of a nation which was considered destroyed. At least the christians knew not to mess with the OT - not adding or subtracting, as did Islam. This factor made christianity the world's most powerful religious group - without oil. Such are the sparks of the OT. Islam did a edit/slash job, now being quagmired in its own non-stop lies and guilt, inventing themselves as Jews, Zionists are converted muslims - and a 1000 other lies seen in every sentence posted in this forum. Those who remain silent of responding to such lies - condone it. It is a violation with a cost factor - upon the individual and a nation.
'YOU SHALL NOT WITNESS THY FELLOW'S INNOCENT BLOOD AND REMAIN IDLE'
quote:
President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice,
I am appalled at the treatment accorded the Israeli delegation at the U.S.-sponsored Annapolis Summit.
Newspaper accounts by those present testify to shameful treatment of the Israeli dignitaries. Because the Arab delegates objected to the Israelis entering through the same entrance used by the Arabs, Israelis were forced to enter the Summit using the U.S. Naval Academy service entrance. The Arabs declined to shake hands with the Israeli representatives and even refused to wear the earphones provided for translations thereby rudely ignoring PM Olmert's speech. To add insult to injury, their behavior was not addressed during the Summit or publicized afterwards.
The Israeli delegates were treated like pariahs. How could such discourtesy, intolerance and lack of dignity be allowed to happen at a "peace Summit" in 2007 in the United States? It is contrary to everything for which this country stands.
How could our President and Secretary of State, as the official leaders of this country, allow such demeaning behavior toward Israeli officials? The message conveyed was very clear. The Israelis were viewed as second-class citizens by the U.S. and their Summit counterparts.
These first signals emanating from the Arab camp were anything but conciliatory and set the tone for all the Palestinian demands that followed. With this opening shot, the Arabs communicated their lack of respect and seriousness about the basic purpose and intent for which they had supposedly attended the Roadmap "peace talks." They were unable to even extend a hand of friendship. The symbolism of the Arab rejection was to treat Israelis as "untouchables."
Condoleezza Rice, having experienced separate entrances for blacks in the South, you should have spoken out against such racist treatment at the Summit. Would you have tolerated the dictates of the Saudis if those offended had been Black heads of state? Would you have accorded them the same offensive treatment? The United States officials, at the very least, owe the Israelis an apology.
When such insulting behavior has been permitted, it sets a precedent. What can we expect at future Summit meetings?
The message from the Annapolis Summit is clear: the actions of the Arab participants spoke louder than their words. What result can we expect from these meetings except "peace with Dhimmitude", the traditional Arab attitude toward the "infidel" Christians and Jews?
Outraged American Jews and Christians resent that our only democratic ally in the Middle East received such inhospitable treatment on American soil. The Israelis should not lend themselves to such subservience by attending future bi-weekly meetings if they are subject to similar discrimination.
As the bi-weekly meetings take place throughout 2008, will the Arabs continue their arrogance, will the U.S. continue to support their behavior, and will the Israelis continue to mutely accept it?
These are the unfortunate questions raised during the Annapolis Summit.
Name witheld

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Nimrod, posted 12-12-2007 1:28 PM Nimrod has not replied

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