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Author Topic:   Woodshole fires Xian biologist... who does not turn cheek.
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 1 of 16 (439805)
12-10-2007 3:01 PM


Here's an interesting tidbit in the news. A Xian biologist was fired by Woodshole Oceanographic Institute, for not accepting evolutionary theory. He has decided to file a lawsuit against them. An excerpt...
The latest U.S. academic spat over science and religion was first reported in The Boston Globe newspaper on Friday. Gibbs Law Firm in Florida, which is representing Abraham, said he was seeking $500,000 in compensation.
The zebrafish specialist said his civil rights were violated when he was dismissed shortly after telling his superior he did not accept evolution because he believed the Bible presented a true account of human creation....
Woods Hole, a federally funded nonprofit research center on Cape Cod, said in a statement it firmly believed its actions and those of its employees in the case were "entirely lawful" and that it does not discriminate.
Abraham, who was dismissed eight months after he was hired, said he was willing to do research using evolutionary concepts but that he had been required to accept Darwin's theory of evolution as scientific fact or lose his job.
The Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination dismissed the case this year, saying Abraham's request not to work on evolutionary aspects of research would be difficult for Woods Hole because its work is based on evolutionary theories.
Abraham said this condition was never spelled out in the advertisement for the job and that his dismissal led to severe economic losses, an injured reputation, emotional pain and suffering and mental anguish.
I think it's interesting that he claims he would be willing to do research "using" evolutionary concepts, yet feels they are fraudulent. Why would he even want to work there, and indeed what did he expect to produce of value, if used them and they were not true?
And I find it sort of cute that he is arguing evolutionary theory was not in the job description. I'm sure wearing clothes was not in the job description, yet one understands that would be expected.
This might make an interesting thread somewhere, but I'm just puttin' out the info right here.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 3:11 PM Silent H has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 16 (439808)
12-10-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
12-10-2007 3:01 PM


No harm - no foul?
Well it might be hard to show harm since he is now employed as a biologist at the prestigious Liberty University. LOL

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 16 (439810)
12-10-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
12-10-2007 3:01 PM


According to the reports I've read it was quite clear that evolution was central to the work. This case is going nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
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JB1740
Member (Idle past 5945 days)
Posts: 132
From: Washington, DC, US
Joined: 11-20-2007


Message 4 of 16 (439812)
12-10-2007 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
12-10-2007 3:12 PM


What I cannot for the life of me understand is how he was competitive, with a PhD in philosophy, for a biology post-doc. Not taking anything away from philosophy PhDs, but I just don't see it. I have a few degrees, but none of them are in subjects that qualify me to work in that lab at Wood's Hole, and I understand evolution fairly well.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 12-10-2007 6:20 PM JB1740 has replied
 Message 11 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-11-2007 3:32 AM JB1740 has replied

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 16 (439818)
12-10-2007 3:33 PM


But the advertisement for this job at CERN didn't say anything about having to believe in gravity, that's discrimination. I am willing to work with concepts that don't involve gravity of course.
-x

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 16 (439838)
12-10-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
12-10-2007 3:01 PM


I wonder if the church could legally fire a priest for not believing in god.

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 16 (439848)
12-10-2007 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
12-10-2007 4:22 PM


Remember Thorkild Grosboel?
Remember Thorkild Grosboel?
It's difficult if being a state church means that you're a state employee, though.

If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 16 (439870)
12-10-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
12-10-2007 4:42 PM


Re: Remember Thorkild Grosboel?
Hahaha, I hadn't heard of that. It's also funny that someone named "Rebel" didn't like his defiance.
From what I know, churches play an odd civil function in Danish society. I had a gf (obviously danish) who said that confirmation to a state church was almost obligatory to get certain social benefits. I guess that's what comes from having a state church.
She was an atheist, pretty hardcore too, but still she had to get confirmed or face problems. Part of this involved writing a paper to be reviewed by church upper ups. So she wrote a scathing anti-religious paper, and demanded to be confirmed all the same. Eventually they were forced to relent and confirm her.
Sounds like maybe this guy decided to take the same fight inside.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 16 (439871)
12-10-2007 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by JB1740
12-10-2007 3:17 PM


What I cannot for the life of me understand is how he was competitive, with a PhD in philosophy, for a biology post-doc.
I assume he had relevant coursework within biology for the position.
Interestingly enough, I was rejected by Woodshole for an internship, because they said I was overqualified. At the time my only degree was in philosophy, though I did have additional coursework in the physical sciences... apparently too much. I kept the rejection letter since that almost seemed like an honor.
Philosophers can actually move on... and I would argue SHOULD move on... and take physical science coursework. It applies the tools they learned and makes them more marketable.
Of course in this case, the guy was probably better served with a degree in Theology. Not sure how a competently trained philosopher would reject evolutionary theory, or have problems investigating its aspects when doing biological work.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by JB1740, posted 12-10-2007 3:17 PM JB1740 has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 10 of 16 (439879)
12-10-2007 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
12-10-2007 4:42 PM


Re: Remember Thorkild Grosboel?
I loved this (referring to the atheist priest):
quote:
However, Mogens Lindhardt, the leader of Denmark's Theological College of Education, described Mr Grosboel's claims as "refreshing".
Yes, indeed, it could be described as refreshing to bring ideas like atheism into a theistic religion.
The Danish Lutherans sound a bit like the Church of England, which sometimes has Bishops who are accused of atheism by more conventional believers.
As Scandinavia always comes up high in surveys on levels of disbelief in religion, perhaps the (wonderfully named) Thorkild Grosboel has hit on a great idea for bringing the masses back to the Church.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 11 of 16 (439977)
12-11-2007 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by JB1740
12-10-2007 3:17 PM


Apparently actually a PhD in biology
What I cannot for the life of me understand is how he was competitive, with a PhD in philosophy, for a biology post-doc.
From "Panda's Thumb" discussion of the matter:
quote:
The newspaper is simply confusing “Doctor of Philosophy” with “doctorate in philosophy.” My experience with the local press leads me to file this under “normal.”
There is other info at the above cited, that the guy's PhD is actually in biology.
Moose
Added by edit: This is the article cited at "Panda's Thumb". You may also be interested in looking at the Pharyngula discussion of the matter.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for ” but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by JB1740, posted 12-10-2007 3:17 PM JB1740 has replied

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JB1740
Member (Idle past 5945 days)
Posts: 132
From: Washington, DC, US
Joined: 11-20-2007


Message 12 of 16 (440008)
12-11-2007 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Minnemooseus
12-11-2007 3:32 AM


Re: Apparently actually a PhD in biology
Actually, it was at Pharyngula where I learned that his PhD was apparently IN philosophy.

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JB1740
Member (Idle past 5945 days)
Posts: 132
From: Washington, DC, US
Joined: 11-20-2007


Message 13 of 16 (440009)
12-11-2007 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
12-10-2007 6:20 PM


I assume he had relevant coursework within biology for the position.
If that's the case, I'm still surprised since people tend to be very focused on what degrees are in...rather than accumulated life experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 12-10-2007 6:20 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Silent H, posted 12-11-2007 4:22 PM JB1740 has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 14 of 16 (440130)
12-11-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by JB1740
12-11-2007 8:32 AM


I'm still surprised since people tend to be very focused on what degrees are in...rather than accumulated life experience.
Oh, that is very true. The only real way around that is to have a great reference from someone with the right degree... so they vouch for your experience... or you have a great reference from someone who is friends with the person doing the hiring.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by JB1740, posted 12-11-2007 8:32 AM JB1740 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by JB1740, posted 12-11-2007 4:24 PM Silent H has replied

  
JB1740
Member (Idle past 5945 days)
Posts: 132
From: Washington, DC, US
Joined: 11-20-2007


Message 15 of 16 (440132)
12-11-2007 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Silent H
12-11-2007 4:22 PM


Oh, that is very true. The only real way around that is to have a great reference from someone with the right degree... so they vouch for your experience... or you have a great reference from someone who is friends with the person doing the hiring.
And the degree also needs to be from the "right school."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Silent H, posted 12-11-2007 4:22 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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