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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 262 (439705)
12-09-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by IamJoseph
12-09-2007 9:52 PM


Re: One of the normal ways to create prophecy
Are you saying that there is no specifically worded prophesy concerning a promised land and a return to it in the OT, or are you saying there is this but it is later inserted after the fact?
I'm saying that there is none in Leviticus 26. If you think there is another one, cite chapter and verse and we can take a look at it.
So far we have seen few if ANY prophecies of any sort that stood up to examination. Of the two presented here, one is no prophecy at all and the other is an example of a failed prophecy.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 262 (439908)
12-10-2007 8:25 PM


PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT
The prophecy in question actually began with what is termed by Biblical scholars as the Abrahamic Covenant. This was a prophetic promise/covenant by the Biblical god, Jehovah to Abraham.
The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant. God made promises to Abraham that required nothing of Abraham. Genesis 15:18-21 describes a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, specifically dealing with the dimensions of the land God promised to Abraham and his descendants. It was an unconditional promise/covenant/prophecy to Abraham requiring an ultimate fulfillment. If it failed, God would fail to keep his promise.
It's found in Genesis 12:1-3. ASV
12:1 Now Jehovah said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee:
12:2 and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make they name great; and be thou a blessing;
12:3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Then in Genesis 13:14-17 Jehovah, god expanded on the prophecy/covenant/promise as he stood in Caanan to where Jehovah led him:
13:14 And Jehovah said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art, northward and southward and eastward and westward:
13:15 for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: So that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then may thy seed also be numbered.
13:17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for unto thee will I give it.
This prophecy/covenant prophesied that trough the seed of Abraham Jehovah would eventually bless all nations. This is important in understanding the messianic kingdom agenda throughout the OT and fulfilled by Jesus as OT prophecy confirms.
In Genesis 15:18-21, Jehovah expands on the prophecy by prophecying the dimensions of the land which was to be the messianic covenant kingdom. This precludes doctrines which teach that it would be fulfilled in Heaven. This is a kingdom on earth to come and these were the boundaries.
15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,
15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,
15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.
In Genesis 17 Jehovah adds that his seed will be kings etc and promises him a son in he and Sarah's old age. Abraham takes Sarah's handmaid and has a son, Ishmael. Abraham asks God to make Ishmael the covenant son but God denies the request promising a son by Sarah who will be the son of the prophetic kingdom. You can read it all in Genesis 17 & in those chapters.
God reaffirms the prophecy/promise in Genesis 21 and 26 to Isaac and in Gen 28 to Jacob.
In Deuteronomy chapter 3 you can see where the promise/prophecy is fulfilled in part when the heathen land of Caanan falls into the hands of Israel, Abraham's descendents via Sarah's son Isaac and grandson, Jacob as God had promised. Jacob's 12 sons divide up the land God gave over into their possession.
The prophecy is fulfilled in part at this point. I say in part, because the messianic kingdom has not yet been fulfilled begs the question as to which one of the 12 sons of Jacob, i.e. 12 Tribes Of Israel does the covenant promise go? The answer is in Genesis 49:10, where Jacob, being an aged man pronounces the blessings/prophecies upon his 12 sons. In Gen 49:10 we read the following:
10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh come:
And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.
Septer meaning kingdom and Shiloh, a Hebrew name meaning "his gift" or "the sent one." War, Battle Names for Boys (when you get to the page click page 5 and you find Shiloh
According to Luke 3 according to the recorded geneologies King David was 10 sons down from Judah to whom the prophecy was given. In II Samuel 7 God reafirms the prophecy/promise to King David and the decendents of Judah via David are in the land until they go after idols and disobey God's commandments. God raises up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to punish the Jews by exile after which they are eventually back in the land with a 2nd temple.
Eventually Jesus, who according to the geneologies of the Gospels is the virgin born messiah/savior who instead of taking the kingdom dies for the sins of the people but prophesies that after the Jews are scattered and gentiles occupy the land, a time out in the future will come when the Jews will return from the nations and he will return to earth to consumate his kingdom in the land of Israel, the messianic kingdom promised/prophesied way back to Abraham will finally be fulfilled.
This all had to be layed out so as to come to why modern day Israel is so significant in the prophecy and why it is so significant. It's a miracle that this nationality of people were scattered world wide as prophesied by Jesus and the OT prophets and come back from all the nations to where they went to establish the kingdom again in preparation for "the gift", i.e. "the sent one", i.e. Shiloh, decendent of Judah as prophesied in Genesis 49:10
here is my outline for this prophecy.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Enter URL for Outline

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 8:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 3:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 28 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 5:50 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 262 (439910)
12-10-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
12-10-2007 8:25 PM


How to make a prophecy after the fact.
Put one quote in, put one quote out...
put one toe in and shake it all about...
you do the hokie pokie and you turn yourself around
prophecy is what is found.
Buz, you can go through any text and pull lines out of context to makeup any tale you want.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2007 8:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 9:06 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 19 of 262 (439915)
12-10-2007 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
12-10-2007 8:36 PM


Re: How to make a prophecy after the fact.
Put one quote in, put one quote out...
put one toe in and shake it all about...
you do the hokie pokie and you turn yourself around
prophecy is what is found.
This one's for you jar.
"Let's TWIST again! Like we did last summer.
Let's TWIST again! Like we did last year.
Let's TWIST again! TWISTING time is here!."
Right from the Chubby Checker School of Biblical Studies.
From which you graduated SUMMA CUM LOUD ... Very LOUD !
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 8:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 10:05 PM jaywill has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 262 (439917)
12-10-2007 9:28 PM


Back On Topic
OK, you guys...enough mudslinging for now!
As a reminder, CK's original topic is:
A number of members ... like to cite "fulfilled prophecy" as being evidence for the truth of the bible.
I would therefore like members who support that view to offer the following:
an outline of A fulfilled prophecy that they feel has the strongest evidence to support it. I would suggest the following format for their presentation.
1) the outline of the prophecy as detailed in the bible.
2) the citation/outline of the evidence that demonstrates the prophecy has been fulfilled.
Discussion will evolve from another user presenting 1) + 2) as the basis for debate.
Edited by AdminPhat, : back on topic

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 262 (439924)
12-10-2007 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jaywill
12-10-2007 9:06 PM


Re: How to make a prophecy after the fact.
The problem is that you can make up any prophecy when you take material out of context, a piece from here, a piece from there.
To be a legitimate prophecy it must have a few features:
  • specificity
  • a given time frame
  • be actually written before the event
  • be written in one place by one person during one contiguous passage
  • be explicit to those living during the time it was written
To be considered fulfilled, all of the conditions mentioned above need to be shown unambiguously to have happened as well as any outcome specified.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 9:06 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 3:07 AM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 22 of 262 (439972)
12-11-2007 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
12-10-2007 10:05 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
One thing people should understand about Bible prophecy and about the ways of God in general:
He does not force the will of man to believe.
He does not usurp the human will.
Therefore there is always room left for you to doubt.
There is always left a space for the person to think
"Well maybe it isn't so"
God always leaves you a way out in case you really don't want to believe in Him.
If you really don't want to believe, God will leave you a way out so as to respect your free will.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 10:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mark24, posted 12-11-2007 3:20 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 24 by kuresu, posted 12-11-2007 3:23 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 26 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 4:01 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 27 by bluegenes, posted 12-11-2007 5:47 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 32 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 7:53 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 37 by jar, posted 12-11-2007 9:29 AM jaywill has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 23 of 262 (439974)
12-11-2007 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
jaywill,
Therefore there is always room left for you to doubt.
Prophecies must be specific, if not they are ambiguous, with potentially several meanings & therefore useless. How can you tell whether an ambiguous prophecy has been met when it could mean several things?
You have to show that a prophecy is definately fulfilled. Some prophecies that might have been fulfilled is only convincing to the gullible.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 24 of 262 (439975)
12-11-2007 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
or is that back door your way of saying "oops, we were wrong, we meant i would happen at X time later on." or "oops, um, it actually didn't deal with that, but instead with this"?
Seems to me the backdoor is your way out of responsibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 3:07 AM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 25 of 262 (439979)
12-11-2007 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
12-10-2007 8:25 PM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT - another failure
quote:
In Genesis 15:18-21, Jehovah expands on the prophecy by prophecying the dimensions of the land which was to be the messianic covenant kingdom. This precludes doctrines which teach that it would be fulfilled in Heaven. This is a kingdom on earth to come and these were the boundaries.
15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,
15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,
15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.

And the Israelites NEVER controlled all this land. And there's no reason to suppose that they ever will. l that can be said of this "prophecy" is that it is one of the major causes of bloodshed in the Middle East.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2007 8:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 6:13 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 26 of 262 (439980)
12-11-2007 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
It's not a question of wanting to believe something specific or not. I want to believe the truth. Whatever that is. If Christianity is true, then, the way for God to respect my free will - and my intellectual integrity - is to provide solid examples of prophecy fulfilment. Ones that don't require twisting or misrepresentation to claim "success". So obviously if you're right there are going to be solid examples of fulfilled prophecy. Where are they ?

This message is a reply to:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 27 of 262 (439984)
12-11-2007 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
jaywill writes:
One thing people should understand about Bible prophecy and about the ways of God in general:
He does not force the will of man to believe.
He does not usurp the human will.
Therefore there is always room left for you to doubt.
There is always left a space for the person to think
"Well maybe it isn't so"
God always leaves you a way out in case you really don't want to believe in Him.
If you really don't want to believe, God will leave you a way out so as to respect your free will.
How do you know all this?
Are you one of his prophets?
Are you specially chosen to be a possessor of this arcane knowledge?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 3:07 AM jaywill has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 28 of 262 (439985)
12-11-2007 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
12-10-2007 8:25 PM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT
quote:
The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant.
Two points here. The covenant was unconditional, but qualified with the severest penalties attached for blatant and sustained disregard of the law ['I will punish you sevenfold'; 'I will turn the hearts and the minds of the nations against you']. In a sense, this makes the prophesy more vindicated in its qualified and attached punishments also occuring, as seen in past history, and continueing till today.
Re Land covenanted to Abraham, this refers to all of Abraham's seed. The Israelite portion was made to Jacob [Israel] and Moses. The borders described to Moses, just prior to entry in Canaan, is from the River Jordan to the sea. This is given very accurately, accounting for all directions [N, S, E W], akin to aerial mapped terrain details of seas, rivers, mountains, wadis, nations and routes.
Re 'and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward' - this rifers to Lake Kinnerete, which buts Jordan and Syria. Almost all these places are identified, including the current controversy over a small village bordering Lebanon, also claimed by Hezbollah and Syra. Many other places [Kardesh barbea, etc] are also cited in other sectors of scripture:
quote:
Numbers Chapter 34
1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:
2 'Command the children of Israel, and say unto them: When ye come into the land of Canaan, this shall be the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan according to the borders thereof.
3 Thus your south side shall be from the wilderness of Zin close by the side of Edom, and your south border shall begin at the end of the Salt Sea eastward;
4 and your border shall turn about southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass along to Zin; and the goings out thereof shall be southward of Kadesh-barnea; and it shall go forth to Hazar-addar, and pass along to Azmon;
5 and the border shall turn about from Azmon unto the Brook of Egypt, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Sea.
6 And for the western border, ye shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your west border.
. 7 And this shall be your north border: from the Great Sea ye shall mark out your line unto mount Hor;
8 from mount Hor ye shall mark out a line unto the entrance to Hamath; and the goings out of the border shall be at Zedad; and the border shall go forth to Ziphron, and the goings out thereof shall be at Hazar-enan; this shall be your north border.
10 And ye shall mark out your line for the east border from Hazar-enan to Shepham;
and the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall go down, and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward;
and the border shall go down to the Jordan, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Salt Sea; this shall be your land according to the borders thereof round about.'
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2007 8:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 29 of 262 (439987)
12-11-2007 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
12-11-2007 3:55 AM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT - another failure
quote:
l that can be said of this "prophecy" is that it is one of the major causes of bloodshed in the Middle East.
I fully concur. Both Europe and the Arab muslims should be taken to task: both knew who's homeland this was, how and why it was invaded [they partook in this invasion, with 10,000 Britons and 200,000 Pre-Islamic Arabs as paid mercenary soldiers/Josephus Documents], and stole and looted this land - then obsessively lied with the world's most notoruous historical falsehoods, and barred Jews from returning. The Arabs even sent their Mayor Haj Amin, begging Hitler not to let any Jews escape alive; while this was said by Europe's Pope:
'WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JESUS' - W.W.11 POPE.
Both did the reverse of what a God fearing religion should have done, and I believe the Arabs and Europe are paying, and will pay - unless they make amends. I see this occuring by a mysterious force - while the UN has been utterly corrupted, with no UN Resolutuons for what are the worst crimes of humanity in all recorded history. I believe here these nations were tested: obviously, one cannot boast about love and peace with their own - it has to be evidenced with others, specially from those one robs, murders and lies. Both Europe and the Arabs utterly failed the test given them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 3:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 6:20 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 42 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-11-2007 1:17 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 30 of 262 (439988)
12-11-2007 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by IamJoseph
12-11-2007 6:13 AM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT - another failure
quote:
I fully concur. Both Europe and the Arab muslims should be taken to task:
Let it be known that I do NOT agree with this rubbish. The people to blame are Jewish extremists, and nobody else.
However, this is NOT the place to discuss it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 6:13 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 6:41 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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