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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 31 of 262 (439991)
12-11-2007 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
12-11-2007 6:20 AM


Re: PROPHECY: THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT - another failure
Yes, we won't discuss it. Israel is always a controversial factor for Europe and Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 6:20 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 32 of 262 (440006)
12-11-2007 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
He does not force the will of man to believe.
He does not usurp the human will.
Sure. But giving laws is not called forcing or negating peoples' will. Reduce to real life, would you call a law court as imposing on your free will? Should there be laws not to murder or steal - or should this left to the individual's whims?
Freedom w/o laws = chaos.
Freedom with the law = Liberty.
Free will is best protected by the law.
quote:
Therefore there is always room left for you to doubt.
There is very little room for doubt here. One can think - the OT laws are the world's most harkened to, despite its anciency. Its laws govern the world's Institutions, and all family, workers, environment and animal rights laws almost exclusively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 3:07 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 8:38 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 43 by kuresu, posted 12-11-2007 2:29 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 33 of 262 (440010)
12-11-2007 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by IamJoseph
12-11-2007 7:53 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
My point here is not that much related to the law. It is related to faith. It is related to faith and love and trust.
Some skeptics of the Bible want to demonstrate their virtuosity at poking holes in prophecies concerning Christ. They want to prove that they can always find a plausible counter explanation to the Messianic prophecies.
I say it is not hard to find some ground for possible doubt if you are dead set on not believing. This I believe, is sovereign of God. With faith there is always a escape hatch for the unbelieving.
Maybe Isaac is not the child.
Maybe God will not be with Jacob everywhere.
Maybe Moses is not the one sent to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Maybe the Israelites should have remained in Egypt.
Maybe they won't be able to conquer the land of Canaan.
The Bible is not only a record of God's acts and His promises. It is also a record of man's doubts and unbelief. The unbelieving always have their good reasons. It seems that God leaves you with a way out of trusting Him in faith and in love if you really don't want His way.
You can lean on your own understanding if you wish to. Or you can trust the Lord. You can wait on the Lord.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 7:53 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 9:11 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 9:14 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 36 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 9:16 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 12-11-2007 12:29 PM jaywill has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 34 of 262 (440016)
12-11-2007 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
12-11-2007 8:38 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
My point here is not that much related to the law. It is related to faith. It is related to faith and love and trust.
I don't see any faith related to these laws - these are very real world applications, with no names attached, because they stand on their own merits. It appears these 613 laws are made with a universal and humanitarian application, as opposed inclined to one religion or faith.
It also has a myserious aspect to it: all its laws are followed by the world exclusively today - not a single world accepted law comes from any other religion or ideology. How can one account for such - when 4 or 5 other religions appeared after it, and the world progressed and advanced? There is even a bold, daring law in the OT which says, NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT - and its vindicated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 8:38 AM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 35 of 262 (440019)
12-11-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
12-11-2007 8:38 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
Of course the problems are not the ease of finding grounds for doubt - it is the difficulty in finding grounds for belief. The Bible simply lacks demonstrably good examples of fulfilled prophecies - although failed prophecies are easy to find.
Your "explanation" doesn't deal with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 8:38 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 6:24 PM PaulK has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 36 of 262 (440020)
12-11-2007 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
12-11-2007 8:38 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
Maybe Isaac is not the child.
Maybe God will not be with Jacob everywhere.
Maybe Moses is not the one sent to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Maybe the Israelites should have remained in Egypt.
Maybe they won't be able to conquer the land of Canaan.
If another view is to be entertained, it should have some substance and evidence. If it appears after 2000 years, w/o any back-up evidence, then it is faith related, and cannot be challenged. It is only challengeable if proof is submitted. But this does not impact on laws - which are not faith based but the glue which keeps humanity turning as we speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 8:38 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 262 (440024)
12-11-2007 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jaywill
12-11-2007 3:07 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
He does not force the will of man to believe.
He does not usurp the human will.
The problem is that the example Buz posted in this thread is flawed. It is an example of creating prohecy where none exist by first forming a conclusion, then sifting through sources to find bits and pieces that can be twisted to support your conclusion and ignoring and eliminating all the other material that if taken in context might refute your pre-established conclusion.
God always leaves you a way out in case you really don't want to believe in Him.
If you really don't want to believe, God will leave you a way out so as to respect your free will.
Which of course is simply bullshit and irrelevant. I happen to believe in GOD, just not the picayune little critter you guys tout or the phony little prophecies you guys create.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 3:07 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 11:59 AM jar has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 38 of 262 (440028)
12-11-2007 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IamJoseph
12-11-2007 6:41 AM


Anti-Zionists
IaJ writes:
Yes, we won't discuss it. Israel is always a controversial factor for Europe and Islam.
You mean people like these?
Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 6:41 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 39 of 262 (440062)
12-11-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
12-11-2007 9:29 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
Which of course is simply bullshit and irrelevant. I happen to believe in GOD, just not the picayune little critter you guys tout or the phony little prophecies you guys create.
Calm yourself.
What do you mean "picayune little critter" ? Who here is limiting God ? And whose view is broader ?
You want to chop off the New Testament and say only Genesis to Malachi is God's revelation? A Man comes on the scene who is 100,000 % absolute for the will of God Who He calls His Father. He dies in total obedience to this belief and is believed to have risen again from the dead.
Are these picayune little insignificant events ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 12-11-2007 9:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 12-11-2007 12:17 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 262 (440065)
12-11-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jaywill
12-11-2007 11:59 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
The key is that you seem to need to create prophecies to support your beliefs and to do so by using the methods pointed out in Message 37, and when attention is drawn to those practices, to fall back on the copout that the poster must want to deny GOD.
You want to chop off the New Testament and say only Genesis to Malachi is God's revelation?
Perhaps you can point out where I actually said that or admit it is just another tactic to avoid addressing the points raised?
A Man comes on the scene who is 100,000 % absolute for the will of God Who He calls His Father. He dies in total obedience to this belief and is believed to have risen again from the dead.
Which is yet another example of totally irrelevant and unimportant misdirection in the hope folk will not notice that it has NOTHING to do with the topic.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 11:59 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 6:44 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 262 (440070)
12-11-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
12-11-2007 8:38 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
jaywill writes:
It seems that God leaves you with a way out of trusting Him in faith and in love if you really don't want His way.
The topic is fulfilled prophecy. If the faithful are so "trusting", why are they always pushing fulfilled prophecy as proof that they picked the right God? If their faith is sufficient, why are they always whistling in the dark?

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 8:38 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 42 of 262 (440081)
12-11-2007 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by IamJoseph
12-11-2007 6:13 AM


I just cannot let this go...
IaJ writes:
'WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JESUS' - W.W.11 POPE.
This too much. I spent the better part of the morning trying to find any support that 'W.W.11 Pope' (I assume you mean Pius XII?) ever said this or anything that could be twisted into this. The only hits I find on it are (drum roll please) OTHER posts on other forums by IaJ. That is suspicious in itself. I did find a bio on wiki about this pope which mentions nothing about his opinions on the State of Israel but he did reverse his earlier WWII neutrality stance and make it RC policy that the church is to aid and assist all Jewish refugees.
SO Joseph - Would you please either show us where you got this quote or admit you made it up? I am going with the latter hypothesis as I can find absolutely no evidence that any Pope said such a thing about the formation of the 20th century State of Israel. That is both online or in my library. Here is what I think happened. You KNOW that it was fulfillment of prophesy, you KNOW that it says Rome would be opposed, so therefore you KNOW that some pope must have said something like that to fulfill prophesy. Cannot find it? Hell, just make it up since it probably is out there somewhere anyway. Doesn't matter that it is slandering the name of someone who opposed the Holocaust, it's lying for Jesus so it is okay.
So here is your chance. Prove me wrong and I will apologize. Otherwise you need to retract your statement. Some people seem to be able to say or do anything and still look at themselves in the mirror. I know you will not acknowledge this but it is my hope that lurkers will see this as another example of how far the creo camp will go to perpetuate lies.
Note: I do not wish to steer this OT in any way, but this needs to be addressed lest it become true by repetition.

"I have seen so far because I have stood on the bloated corpses of my competitors" - Dr Burgess Bowder

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 6:13 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 43 of 262 (440095)
12-11-2007 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by IamJoseph
12-11-2007 7:53 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
Its laws {the OT} govern the world's Institutions, and all family, workers, environment and animal rights laws almost exclusively.
Well, that's bull.
The US and UK are based on common law. Not based on OT laws, really.
France and a good chunk of europe are based on the Napoleonic code. Same thing as with common law.
I'm pretty damn sure that Asia (India, China, Japan, all the indo-chinese countries, etc) are not based on the OT.
Does the OT describe how a republic should work? How about porportional representation? What about open list PR? How about the winner-take all single member districts? Does it explain how supreme judicial bodies should be governed? Does it mandate when elections are supposed to be held and how often?
I especially disagree with your statement on animal rights laws. Given that the OT in genesis says that the animals and world are ours to use as we will (and paraphrasing Ann Coulter, "the earth is yours, rape it".
Or are you maybe perhaps confusing "they are similar to each other" with "one caused the other"? Well, that would be a surprise, since as you all say, a dog is a dog is fox?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by IamJoseph, posted 12-11-2007 7:53 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 44 of 262 (440163)
12-11-2007 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
12-11-2007 9:14 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
Of course the problems are not the ease of finding grounds for doubt - it is the difficulty in finding grounds for belief. The Bible simply lacks demonstrably good examples of fulfilled prophecies - although failed prophecies are easy to find.
I think that is kind of nonsense.
I mean your - "it is the difficulty finding grounds for belief"
Here is a prophecy of Jesus "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19)
They did their best to destroy Him and in three days He was raised up from the dead. But you say you have "difficulty finding grounds for belief."
You have a problem then. YOU ... have a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2007 9:14 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-11-2007 6:36 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 12-12-2007 3:59 AM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 262 (440170)
12-11-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jaywill
12-11-2007 6:24 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
Well, let's look at it.
First, what we have is a story first written decades after the fact and at best, second hand assertion that Jesus even said such a thing.
Second, it is not explicit as even the quote from the author of John makes clear:
John 2 writes:
18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
so it fails the predictive test.
Third, it is an example of after the fact quotemining and rationalizing, again as the author of John makes clear:
John 2 writes:
22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2007 6:24 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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