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Author Topic:   Palestine
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3255 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 1 of 6 (439569)
12-09-2007 8:21 AM


From posts 113 to 190 on thread "Is the Bible the word of God or of men?",...

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=390&m=106 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=390&m=106">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=390&m=106

...I have been posting responces to 100% false claims.My responces (see #116 for first example) were used by a poster in #117 to disrupt the discussion with politically motivated comments- objecting to my use of "Palestine". The poster(#117) used several historical points I made (which happened to include the dreadful designation of "Palestine" for ancient Palestine), in relation to history, as a means to side-step the historical issues at hand and instead focus on my designation of "Palestine".

In post #118 & (to a lesser extent) the smaller post of #119, the broad totality of my responces were simply historical issues which didnt have anything to do with the "Palestine" obsession of IamJoseph , but I also (on the side) gave him historical facts on "Palestine" which shot down his claim that the term wasnt used till the post-2nd Temple period.

His post 120 (and many others), not only began the process of larding the thread with continued debate on the "Palestine" issue I settled in post #118 , but ALSO saw him continue to disrupt other points I made which werent related to his "palestine" obsession (in #120, see his disruptive responce to my Gosta Ahlstrom quote from #118).

At the request of many posters (see posts from 141-189),I continue the discussion here!

Here is how the discussion ended (as of post #190 which is when I am typing this)


from Message 187 by tthzr3

"iaj writes:
I did not initiate this subject. A sentence which related to a 3000 year relic of king David and the original philistines, aroused a string of verbals and a history depiction which does not allign with this planet."

(post 187)
-tthzr-
This planet?"

(next responce)
-IamJoseph responds-

On this planet, Jesus could not have been a Palestinian - an historical impossibility.

IamJoseph is repeating his crap that was already responded to, but here is a recap.

from post #120 (also his comments from #145 will be included in complete chronological order)


#120 & #145
-IamJoseph-

Jesus could never have been a Palestinian.This name first emerged in 70CE.... Since Jesus is said to have died in 31CE-the name Palesinian was not used by anyone-making it impossible he could have been a Palestinian

....
You cannot provide this forum with a document between 3300 years ago ... and 70CE
....
Syria(previously Assyria ... was not assoiated with Israel, Judea or Samaria and the term Palestine is was fiction for ancient periods.... I have no idea where your version of history comes from but it does not represent any truths.... spewing gibberish about palestinians and ancient Syria.
....
...there is also the Scrolls- which predates 70CE and makes no mention of your Pretend Pals.... nor does the name Palestine or palestinian enter history.
....

How can I know it! The Roman archives, the Jewish Arcives, and all history outside Islamic editions says Rome invaded and conquered Judea and Israel-not Syria.

First of all, this "Islamic editions" crap is a straw man which hasnt got a thing to do with anybodies readings of western historical sources.(I made no reference to a single Arabic work!)

Joseph is responding to my comment that the Greeks (both before and after Alexander), Romans, and Arabs called the entire land of Israel/Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and modern Syria "Syria".

Lets see what Philo of Alexandria has to say!


Every Good Man Is Free

XII. (75)

Moreover Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which countries no slight portion of that most populous nation of Jews inhabits.There is a portion of these people called Essenes, in number something more than four thousand in my opinion...

-Philo of Alexandria-
30BCE to 40 CE

Palestine(in Syria) is the country of the most populous nation of Jews , including the Christ-like Essenes!

So much for this being a post 2nd Temple Period "slander" of Jews!

This was essentially shown to Joseph (and much more), but in the same thread, he still said this;


-IamJoseph-
#160

...read the Flavius Josephus Documents, the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the NT about this region and time.Please show us where it contains... Palestinians.


(hope the Philo quote was specific enough! Incase he forgets, Ill go ahead and attach it all of my future posts as a sig. lol)

Lets see what a scholarly fundamentalist (or evangelical conservative) treatment says about the word "Palestine" and its first use.


Illustrated dictionary Of The Bible
Herbert Lockyer, SR., Editor
with F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison
Thomas Nelson publishers
1997 edition
p.v
....
...a helpful resource fo understanding the Word of God and its timeless message.

Scores of leading evangelical scholars contriuted articles for this project.All of these articles were then subjected to a rigorous editorial process... to make sure all essential facts ... were covered.

....
-The Publishers

....
pp. 789-795
Palestine
....

The term Palestine as a name for the entire land of Canaan, beyond the coastal plains of the Phoenicians, was frst used by the fifth century B.C. historian Herodotus.

Lets take a look at other scholarly sources.


"Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land
2003 edition
Avraham Negev
Shimon Gibson
p380

PALESTINE
The earliest occurence of the name Palestine is in the Histories of Herodotus, written in Greek in the mid-5th century BC, where Palaistinae is applied to the area of the Levant between Phoenicia and Egypt (Herodotus I, 105; II, 106; III, 5;91; IV, 39; VII, 89).Josephus, the Jewish historian of the 1st century AD, is the first writer to explicity link this name to the land of the Philistines and he consistntly refers to the Philistines as the Palaistinoi in his jewish Antiquities.Doubtless, he believed that the name Palestine was a transliteration of the ancient Semitic name for the Philistines,Peleshet, and the consensus of modern opinion agrees with him on this point.However, the earliest references to Palestine in the classical literature shows that this term was generally applied to the land of Israel in the wider sense.

Curiously, in the Bible we are told that Jacob recieved the name Israel (Yisrael) because he wrestled (sarita) with the Lord (Gen 32:24-25).In the Greek Septuagint translation of this passage and also in the narrative account of this episode by the Hellenistic Jewish writer Demetritus, both probably dating from the 3rd century BC, the Greek verb used to describe this wrestling encounter is palaio.The corresponding noun for wrestler is palaistes.David Jacobson has argued that in its Greek form Palaistinae was a transliteration of a word used to describe the land of the Philistines and, at the same time, a literal translation of the name Israel.This dual interpretation would reconcile apparent contradictions in early definitions of the name Palaistin.It is also compatible with the habit of ancient Greeks for punning on place names, which is well attested in Greek coin designs and the Comedies of Aristophanes. Moreover it would help to explain the designation of the land of Israel by this name in the philosophical writings of Philo of Alexandria and other works in Greek by Jewish authors of the Second Temple period.

After the Bar Kokhba rebellion(132-135 AD) , the Roman renamed the province of Judea as Syria Palestina.This act may be seen not simply as a part of the Emperor Hadrian's aim to erase the Jewish homeland, but more specifically to retionalize the name of the new province, which was much larger than historic Judea.In their turn, the Arabs transliterated this name to Filastin, and used it for the area of the Holy Land"

Guess what?
Even the name "Phoenician" and "Syria" are of uncertain origin.


(Peoples Of The Past)
Phoenicians
Glenn E. Markoe.
Even their ancient name eludes us.The modern term 'Phoenician' is, in fact, a Greek invetion, from the word Phoinis, whose very meaning is debated among scholars.

Among other meanings, it could signify the color of purple dye which came from the area.

Ill cover Syria later.

Back to Palestine


Harpers Bible Dictionary
p740-746
Palestine

....
a designation for the southern coastal strip...
Palestine became the name of the entire region.The ancient Greek historian Herodotus was the first to use Palaistine, the Hellenistic form of Philistia, in the inclusive sense.

After the supression of the bar-kochba revolt in A.D. 135 the Roman emperor Hadrian expunged the name Provincia Judea and substituted Provincia Syria Palaestina or simply Palaestina(Palestine).By AD 400 three provinces had been established with the designations Palaestina prima and secunda, west of the Jordan River, and Palestina tertia, east of the Jordan and north of the Arnon River.The main part of the province of palestine was in cisjordan, meaning east of the Jordan, also belonged to the province of Palestine.


Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia Of The Bible
Tenney ed.
1976
Volume 3
564-587

Palestine

.....Application of the name to the wider region lying inland from this coastline was the work of classical writers, so that by the time of the Rom. occupation it could be understood in its modern sense,embodied in the Rom. province of Palestina.

....
Under the rule of Arab and Ottoman, Pal. was but a part of the larger, Syrian, unit of government, and it was really only with the breakup of the Turkish empire at the end of the first world war that the name Pal. again took on any precise significance.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
1981
Volume P
p6-23
Palestine

....

The earliest known use of the name Palestine occurs in Herodotus, who used the expressions "in Palestine Syria" (i105; ii.106), "the Syrians which are in Palestine" (ii.104; vii.89), and "the Palestine Syrians" (iii.5)..... "These Phoenicians... now inhabit the seacoast of Syria; that part of Syria and as much of it as reaches to Egypt, is all called Palestine" (vii.89)
....
Josephus... also used the expression "Palestine Syria" (Ant. viii.10.3 -260),... but did not specify what he inclued in the term.In CAp i.22 (171) he spoke of the Jews as "inhabitants of Palestine"; but since this occurs in a discussion of Herodotus, it is not clear how Josephus was using the term.Jerome ... said that this usage became offical in the Roman and Byzantine Chancellery...


Dictionary of the Ancient Near East

edited by Piotr Bienkowski and Alan Millard

Philo used it as a synonym for biblical Canaan, while Josephus used it to refer to the ancient land of Philistia.

After AD 135, the Roman Emperor Hadrian ... with Provincia Syria Palaestina, which was shortened to Palaestina.The Arabs used the name Filistin for territory on the west sde of the Jordan river, but ninteenth-century Europeans spoke about Western Palestine and Eastern Palestine,which were seperated by Jordan.Under the British mandate,, the term Palestine was used for territory west of the river, as opposed to Transjordan.The United Nations 1948 partition of western Paestine was supposed to create Israel and a modern Arab state of Palestine

(Arabic doesnt have a "P" sound so anytime the name starts with "f" , then know that it is a quote of Arabic use. The chronology above-via Bienkowski&Millard- shows that Arabs did infact use the term before westerners arrived in the 1800's.

NOW THE ISSUE OF SYRIA!

I constantly was telling Joseph that "Syria" in ancient times (clearly after the time of Alexander) and frankly before (see Herodotus) was a term which included ancient Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan and modern day Syria.

Had he listened,then it also would have explained why some Palestinian Arabs were not happy about the nation states being carved up (Joseph used quotes of some Palestinians saying they prefered a larger Syrian nation as "proof" that Palestinians were a "fictional people").

Here is some education for Joseph and others

Anchor Bible Dictionary
Volume VI
Syria
p271
....
PREHISTORIC SYRIA
Up until the 20th century the term Syria designated a natural geographic area (Bilad al-Cham) between the Sinai to the S, the Mediterranean to the W, the Taurus mountains to the N, and the Syrian desert to the E.This region never knew (except during the Roman domination) real political unity.We will refer here to the limits of the present-day state of Syria, excluding by consequence, the bordering states of Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon.

That takes care of that!

Ironically, this Anchor Bible Dictionary article actually states that there was little unity between (greater) Syria since the Roman period, which means that the seperate regions (like Palestine!) were somehwat auto-run during the Arab period.That wont help IamJospeh and right-wing "prophecy experts" when they claim that Palestine was just part of Arabia.(in addition to other absurd lies)


International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Syria
....
II.Names.-A. Sutu.The term Sutu(m) or Sutiu(m) occurs in cuneiform records over a considerable period of time.Sargon I mentions "the Sutu, desert folk", who had seized lands along the Euphrates(ARAB,1, 68). The Mari letters desccribe the Sutum or Sutem (su-te-em and su-di-e-em) as nomads spread along the Euphrates from Terqa to Yabliqa.... Esarhaddon (680-669 B.C.) refered to the "Suti-people" in connection with his campaign against the Arabs and Egyptians .... In the Amarna letters, Sutu are nomadic tribsmen in Egyptian service (Am.Tab. 297:16).These are possibly the same as the sttyw of Egyptian documents frm early dynastic times.The repeated references of Sargon II (722-705 B.C.) of Assyria to the Sutu and the problems he had with them (cf. ARAB, II, 31-39, passim) coincide well with the activity of the Arameans in the 8th century.
....
D.Syria,Syrans
....
According to P.K. Hitti(p.58) , a northern Euphrates region was known to the Babylonians as SU.RI, and he calls attention to the term su-ri in the Amarna Letters (Am.Tab. 108:17, usually emended to read su-(ba)-ri to confrm to Am.Tab. 109:40)

Herodotus (5th cent. B.C.) used the Greek word Syria to include Ascalon and Phoenicia (i.105), and refered to "the Palestine part of Syria" (ii.106).Discussing the provinces established by Darius, he mentioned a locaton "on the Cicilian and Syrian boder" (iii.91).Herodotus appears to have been responsible for deriving "Syrians" from "Assyrians" (vii.63), an etymology challenged by modern scholars(cf. Hitti, p. 58; Gk.Syrioi appears in Nu. 24:22 LXX B* to translate Heb. 'assur).

The "father of History" describes the situation of Palestine/Syria 2500 years ago.Amazing that it seems almost the same as the Arab period up till the 20th century!

If the Palestinians were a "fictional people" to us westerners then were the Israelites in the 5th century BCE also "fictional"?

They were NOT!

Neither were Palestinians "fictional" from 450 B.C. till 1948 CE(or "1965" as IamJoseph claims).

Ignorant westerners better start to study their oldest historical documents("history" in its original name).It will put their foolish "fictional people" claims to rest real fast.

Dispensationalists might loose one too many popular cannards however.

To trade cannards & ignorance for historical facts isnt a bad trade IMHO.

Just as Arab Palestinians often called themselves "Syrians" (short for Syro-Palestinian) , lets see what the early Greek references to Jews and their homeland specified.

Ill let Velikovsky tell us


Ages In Chaos

The earliest references are by Theoprastus, Clearchus of Soli, and Megasthenes, ... at the end of the fourth and the beginning of the third century before this era.
....
And Clearchus of Soli wrote:

The Jews descened from the philosophers of India.The philosopers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews.... The nameof their capital is very difficult to pronounce; it is called Jerusalem.
....
Megasthenes, who lived in India between 302 and 291 before the present era, wrote in his book Indica:

... in Syria with those who are called Jews

No mention of "Israel"

I suppose IamJoseph and others will have to start saying "Israel is a fictional people" just like their idiotic racial logic will force them to admit "Jesus is Palestinian".IamJoseph already said that Jews should be expelled from Palestine if it is proven that Christian and Muslim Arabs have converts from Jewish ancestors. (he called that a disgusting thing or something stronger).

I hold none of those views, but right-wingers always have to justify ethnic-cleansing for every little issue of difference.Joseph even projected his hateful views on me, and wanted me to choose which peoples to hate and which should be driven from the land-as if peaceful harmony isnt allowed (and his "prophetic" views do indeed view peace as a non-sequitor!).

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Nimrod, posted 12-09-2007 5:14 PM Nimrod has not yet responded

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3255 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 2 of 6 (439640)
12-09-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nimrod
12-09-2007 8:21 AM


"Fictional people"
IamJoseph, who was very very ignorant of the historical situation, offered this (one of his few quotations of any material,and shock shock it was typical right-wing b.s. garbage) as proof that Palestinians are a "fictional people"


http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=29&x_article=1028
Jay Ambrose, a columnist with Scripps-Howard News Service, wrote that

Who Are the Palestinians?

"Palestinian" today typically applies to Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza Strip and to those who fled what became Israel in 1948 and their descendants. Often it also covers the Palestinian majority in Jordan, and sometimes even Israeli Arabs. Essentially, these are 20th century usages, like the adjectives Soviet and Yugoslav.

Although a distinct Palestinian nationalism is taken for granted internationally today, the notion of a Palestinian people separate and distinct from neighboring Arabs is relatively recent. Indeed, Zahir Muhsein, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee, told the Dutch newspaper Trau on March 31, 1977:

The Palestinian people does not exist . . . . The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.

In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

Muhsein emphasized a point often made. The First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations in Jerusalem in 1919, called to choose delegates to the Paris Peace Conference, declared:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic, and geographic bonds.

In 1947, the United Nations was considering the second partition of British Mandatory Palestine (Transjordannow Jordan and 77.5 percent of the total areahad been separated in 1921 and Jews forbidden to settle there). The Arab Higher Committee informed the General Assembly that "Palestine was part of the province of Syria" and "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political identity."

This 'historical source" (a right-wing column. Ha!) was so useful that it called the Hadrian naming of the province "Palestine" an early attempt at "psychological warfare", and presented is as a "new" name just to insult Jews.

God save us from this idiotic crap.True, only the ignorant believe this type of nonsense, but we have *ALOT* of people ignorant of history (IamJoseph is a typical "prophecy student" American "Christian").

Anyway, here are some quotes of Arabs back at the time.Notice the use of the ancient designation "Syrian". They considered all peoples from Palestine to be "Syrians" in the larger sense.

(this isnt an IamJoseph quote)


First Arab Congress President

Abd-ul-Hamid Yahrawi
1913

"All of us, both Muslims and Christians, have the best of feelings toward the Jews. they are our brothers in race and we regard them as Syrians who were forced to leave the country at one time but whose hearts always beat together with ours. We are certain that our Jewish brothers the world over will know how to help us so that our common interests may succeed and our common country will develop both materially and morally."

Also.


In March 1919
Emir Faisal

"The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. ...We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home. ...We are working together for a reformed and revised Near East and our two movements complete one another. The Jewish movement is nationalist and not imperialist. Indeed, I think that neither can be a real success without the other."

Only somebody supremely ignorant of history could justify quotes like these as proof that "Palestinians are a fictional people".

The problem is that Hal Lindsey , John Hagee, Jack Van Impe, etc. manage to attract alot of ultra-ignorant people.

Ignorance of the Bible and ignorance of history (in addition to outright liars-usually those who make money off of the subject or those who have a platform to reach millions)define the dispensationalist movement of "Biblical prophecy" and the associated hatred which ignorance breeds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nimrod, posted 12-09-2007 8:21 AM Nimrod has not yet responded

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3255 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 3 of 6 (439644)
12-09-2007 5:23 PM


Ready for thread to start.
Whenever and wherever.

Thanks again.



Every Good Man Is Free

XII.(75) Morever Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which conuntries no slight portion of that most populous nation of the Jews inhabits.

-Philo of Alexandria-
(c30BCE to c40 CE)


  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3255 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 4 of 6 (440193)
12-11-2007 7:31 PM


I can abstain from the discussion.
If my potential-presence causes some MOD's to fear this topic getting out of hand, then I can simply let others debate.

I do ask that MOD's demand that certain posters, with a fondness for cannards(dispensationalists), be required to actually respond to the historical issue's already presented before spiking the thread with un-supported posts & rants.

I also ask that dispensationalists (and others) use the thread as an opportunity to engage in debate; THUS responding to every issue (in the OP and later posts from thread participants) in an honorable & detailed way before going off on rants and straw man beatings.

I also ask that the discussion be limited to history BEFORE 1948 (preferably ancient, Greco-Roman,etc. and very little post-Ottoman).

Debates on "Biblical Prophecy" are welcome within the thread, but AGAIN without any side-discussions on modern events (only allow *short* reference to c.1948 events just for background).On the Biblical front,I prefer the debate center around the exact meaning Biblical verses and the historical record of christian exegesis from the 1900 years after Christs death and till the 20th century.


Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AdminPhat, posted 12-12-2007 10:27 AM Nimrod has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 5 of 6 (440250)
12-12-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Nimrod
12-11-2007 7:31 PM


Re: I can abstain from the discussion.
I'll promote it, but I cant see making much sense out of you abstaining from the topic after writing three posts championing the promotion of it.

(Reconsideration)

Edited by AdminPhat, : reconsideration after reading all the posts



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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Nimrod, posted 12-11-2007 7:31 PM Nimrod has not yet responded

      
    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1945
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 6 of 6 (440269)
    12-12-2007 12:06 PM


    Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

      
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