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Author Topic:   Evening and Morning
Mespo
Member (Idle past 991 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 1 of 21 (440305)
12-12-2007 2:09 PM


In the creation account of Genesis, the author manages to get through 3 days before the Sun and Moon are created to light the Earth. If there is a Bible literalist in the house, I would like to know how the phrase "And the evening and the morning were the..." can be used in the first 3 days when there is no physical reference point that a viewer can use to watch an evening and then a morning.

In other words, doesn't an evening an a morning require a rotating planetary orb with an atmosphere to scatter the the light from an illuminating source before that light source appears above the horizontal plane of said orb? (whew)

(:raig


Replies to this message:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 21 (441091)
12-16-2007 12:19 PM


Good Question
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
*******************************************************************
Thats a good question, by the way.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3022 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 3 of 21 (441263)
12-16-2007 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mespo
12-12-2007 2:09 PM


Hi there.
Here is a link to a thread where I covered the issue (though I probably should do a better job of explaining the scholarship I quote-especially since they arent making the point I make out of the data.).

EvC Forum: The Aggadah of Genesis: In Conflict With Science?
www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=367&m=91 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=367&m=91">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=367&m=91

Check post 105 (my posts before that were rather weak IMO) then after that see post 120(? ...or around there)

Around post 121 (121?) is a link to another thread where these issues were sort of discussed by me as well. (to follow discussion, check the post's that a certain message is a reply to-at top of post- then trace your way back OR if reading posts in chronological order then check bottom of posts for responces to a post)

(also ignore any posts by IamJoseph , they are just background-noise which this site would do well without)

The conclusion I have reached is that the word "evening" means sunset and the history of the word (in older Semitic languages) shows that it *USED* to include the word "sun" in a genetive construction. (see my post 120{?} for the documentation)


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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 21 (441314)
12-17-2007 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mespo
12-12-2007 2:09 PM


If there is a Bible literalist in the house,

Ahoy there, my friend.

I would like to know how the phrase "And the evening and the morning were the..." can be used in the first 3 days when there is no physical reference point that a viewer can use to watch an evening and then a morning.

There is actually a very easy way to interpret this that not only makes more sense but also does away completely with this little paradox you have mentioned.

You are right in saying that a sunrise-sunset day requires for a sun. However, you are slightly misled in thinking that the 'days' being mentioned are of the sunrise-sunset sort. The 'days' in Genesis 1:1–2:3 are most certainly references to 24-hour periods of time. Taken this way the reference to evening and morning makes sense in that it is telling us that it was the evening-morning switch over period at the end of one 24-hour cycle at which point it is as late into the evening and as early into the morning as it can possibly be. This is further evidenced by the fact that the reference to evening always occurs before the reference to morning.

Also important to note is that there would have been no further distinction in time periods as we use them today. In other words, there would have been no morning-evening switch over period since there would have been no need to distinguish one half of the day from the other half of the day. All that was needed was one term (evening) to describe the end of the day, and another term (morning) to describe the beginning of the day. Because the day is not officially ended—i.e., there would not actually have been one day—until the evening is fully over, and because at the time when the evening fully completes the morning begins, we are given indication of the passing 24-hour period in reference to the completion of the evening and the beginning of the morning—"and there was evening and there was morning..." indicates that one full 24-hour period has just been completed.

I hope this helps your understanding; God bless.
Jon


Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 21 (441359)
12-17-2007 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mespo
12-12-2007 2:09 PM


lets look at evening and morning.
The first step is for you to actually read the story in Genesis.

Genesis 1 writes:

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Notice God creates light, and God then separates the light and darkness calling one day and the other night.

That is all that is needed for there to be an evening and a morning.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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sl33w
Member (Idle past 3839 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 05-23-2008


Message 6 of 21 (470139)
06-09-2008 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
12-17-2007 9:17 AM


Re: lets look at evening and morning.
Reply to mespo

In the Bible the word "day" is a symbol for many different lengths of time.

In Daniel's "70 Weeks" one day = 360 days; or, one year.

In Genesis the Man and the Woman died "in-day" (Hebrew) that they ate the forbidden fruit.

But then the Man lived 930 years (Gen 5.5). So then the First Day was over 930 years long.

And, I have written a book that it ended shortly before the Flood, which was in 2492 BC. This is determined by grade school math. This period was 1656 years, as was confirmed by many writers, and myself. So then, the Man died in 1656 uears; or, at age 930.

sl33w


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1704 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 7 of 21 (470408)
06-11-2008 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mespo
12-12-2007 2:09 PM


Game Show question
One of the seven days in Creation Week does not have an evening and morning.

Which one?


Archer O

All species are transitional.


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sl33w
Member (Idle past 3839 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 05-23-2008


Message 8 of 21 (475576)
07-16-2008 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mespo
12-12-2007 2:09 PM


Debt to an Atheist
When we walk in the light, as Iesous is in the light, and when we are obeying our limited understanding of the will of the Living God, then He sends us human messengers to teach us of our false beliefs.

A) The Ethiopian eunuch was in the dark, God sent Philip.
B) Cornelius was in the dark, God sent Peter.
C) Macedonia was in the dark, God sent Paul.

This is the standard operation of God today.

[But then, who is seeking truth today?]

I was in the dark about the subject of this theme, "evening and morning," and God sent me a book by an Atheist, trying to disprove the existence of God.

A) Genesis 1.11, "the herb was in the field on the third day."
B) Genesis 2.4-5; "Heaven and Earth were created before the herb was in the field."

The Atheist was ecstatic at his discovery!

He concluded, "The Bible is full of contradictions, and so, there is no God!"

"The fool has said in his heart, 'No [plural] Gods (MYHLA)" - Ps 53.1.

I concluded, based on this new information learned from the Atheist, "I can do better than that!"

The Jewish day was founded on Genesis 1.1., and they had 12 hours of darkness (evening) and then 12 hours of light (morning).

We know that Chapter One is a Parable because, Adam died in-day (Heb.) he ate of forbidden fruit; but he also lived 930 years.

It is disgraceful to mention, but all Christian Bible commentators have written, "Adam did not die in-day! But he took on the ability to die later."

This is termed "rationalization," and the preachers major in denying
the Bible.

So then, the First Day was 1656 years, from the banning from the Garden of Eden to the Flood, in 2492 BC.

And, Adam, who lived only 930 years, died in-day.

The Son of the Man mentioned this "Parable of Creation" in these words:

"It is necessary for Me (Son of the God) to work the works of The [One] having sent Me while it is Day (Mornng of the Sixth day; 164 BC - AD 35). Night (Evening of the Seventh Day; AD 35-76) is coming when no one can work. When I am in the world, I am the ligfht of the world" - Jn 9.4-5.

Paul also mentioned this parabe of Creation in these words:

"The Night (Evening of the Seventh Day; AD 35-76) is far spent,
the Day (Moring of the Seventh Day; AD 77- End of Time; no night here) is at hand" - Rom 13.12.

John also mentioned this parable of Creation:

"Even now there are many antichrists whereby we know it is the Last Hour" - 1Jn 2.18.

It is amazing what you can earn when you listen to the messengers of the Living God.

A) You cannot learn anything until you admit that you are wrong.
[Ahh, there's the rub!]
B) God sent dreams to pagan kings to instruct His prophets Joseph and Daniel.
C) Joseph and Daniel listened.

I have a complete book on, "The Parable of the 7 Days of Creation."

Every "evening" and "morning" is documented in the Bible.

sl33w


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Replies to this message:
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3721 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 9 of 21 (475583)
07-16-2008 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by sl33w
07-16-2008 7:38 PM


Re: Debt to an Atheist
sl33w writes:

The Jewish day was founded on Genesis 1.1., and they had 12 hours of darkness (evening) and then 12 hours of light (morning).

Not in my bible! Mine says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

and verse 2 says "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

the "day" is founded on verse 5 and it says nothing about being the 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night. Thats you speculating. The 24 hour period we call a day depends on the earth's rotation on its axis while it rotates around the sun. The sun was not created until the fourth day (Gen 1:14). There is no textual reference in the bible that suggests that the first three days were the same as todays 24 hour periods.

sl33w writes:

I was in the dark about the subject of this theme, "evening and morning," and God sent me a book by an Atheist, trying to disprove the existence of God.

A) Genesis 1.11, "the herb was in the field on the third day."
B) Genesis 2.4-5; "Heaven and Earth were created before the herb was in the field."

The Atheist was ecstatic at his discovery!

He concluded, "The Bible is full of contradictions, and so, there is no God!"

"The fool has said in his heart, 'No [plural] Gods (MYHLA)" - Ps 53.1.

It IS a contradiction, but I grant it is not enough to confirm there is no God. Your post failed to clear the contradiction up, if that was your original purpose. Citing bible verses will not sustain your claims; the data will. Lets try to stick to the data shall we?


With my eyes there's nothing you can do that I can't see through.
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 10 of 21 (475597)
07-16-2008 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by sl33w
07-16-2008 7:38 PM


Re: Debt to an Atheist
You cannot learn anything until you admit that you are wrong.

Words to live by, perhaps?


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3100
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 11 of 21 (475598)
07-16-2008 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Itachi Uchiha
07-16-2008 8:09 PM


Re: Debt to an Atheist
While the term 'yom' might not mean a specific time frame, the context of 'morning and night, and in context of when Genesis was written makes it obvious that they talking about days as known by man.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 07-16-2008 8:09 PM Itachi Uchiha has responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 21 (475633)
07-17-2008 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Itachi Uchiha
07-16-2008 8:09 PM


Re: Debt to an Atheist
the "day" is founded on verse 5 and it says nothing about being the 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night. Thats you speculating. The 24 hour period we call a day depends on the earth's rotation on its axis while it rotates around the sun. The sun was not created until the fourth day (Gen 1:14). There is no textual reference in the bible that suggests that the first three days were the same as todays 24 hour periods.

ASV 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

The point is that whoever compiled Gen 1:1-5 did not know that the earth rotated, per the above:

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night."


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


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Replies to this message:
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sl33w
Member (Idle past 3839 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 05-23-2008


Message 13 of 21 (475709)
07-17-2008 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Itachi Uchiha
07-16-2008 8:09 PM


To Peurto Rican friend
Quote: "Data needed", paraphrased.

You Atheists have no "data" and so that is your only line of defense to claim that Bible believers have no data.

All encyclopedias document many nations destroyed, that God predicted He would destroy in the Bible.

The Ottoman Empire surrendered "unconditionally" to the British General, Edmond Allenby, on Nov. 29, 1918.

Jesus had John write this in AD 67, Revelation 16; "Armageddon."

Can you Atheists match anything like that?

sl33w


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sl33w
Member (Idle past 3839 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 05-23-2008


Message 14 of 21 (475713)
07-17-2008 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ramoss
07-16-2008 10:16 PM


Reply to Ramoss
"Yom" (Heb.), Strong's #3117, was translated (by men brighter than you) as - day - 936 Xs, time - 59 Xs, year - 3 Xs.

You cannot reasonably state an opinion on Genesis, Chapter One,
because you have never seen the correct translation.

You are a prisoner of the Jews, the "original antichrist."

You do not even understand Genesis 1.1. because you have never seen it. Again, you are a prisoner of the Jews.

The verb form (ARB) is a "partciple" translated "creating."

Participles began in the past, are in the present tense, and will continue into the future.

The "creation", when Moses wrote Genesis in 1635 -1594 BC, had been in the past, was in the present, and continued until God finished the "creation" in "one day" (Isa 66.8), which was AD 77-78.
See: Rev 21 & 22.

The prophets repeatedly described the "creation" as a participle; see: Isa 65.17.

So then, the Bible message cannot be understood without the Bible.

You are a prisoner of the Jews. You have never seen the Bible.

The verb "he created" is recorded, "ARBY."

Hebrew reads from right to left.

The prefix "Y" (on the left) represents "He." This is cofirmed about 50,00 times.

Compare: Gen 1.21, (ARBY) = He created" with Gen 1.1 (ARB) = creating (participle).

You are in prison!

sl33w


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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3721 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 15 of 21 (475716)
07-17-2008 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ramoss
07-16-2008 10:16 PM


Re: Debt to an Atheist
ramoss writes:

While the term 'yom' might not mean a specific time frame, the context of 'morning and night, and in context of when Genesis was written makes it obvious that they talking about days as known by man.

Yes, but how do they know that? How can they know it was "days as known by man" when that depends on the rotation of the earth on its own axis and around the sun and the sun being created on the 4th day which woud in turn become the first day "as known by man".


With my eyes there's nothing you can do that I can't see through.
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