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Author Topic:   Insect Wing Evolution
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 1 of 37 (440393)
12-12-2007 9:02 PM


I would like to hear some evolutionary theories for insectal wing development. I can't seem to find any material on this subject. There seems to be this obsession with flight evolution in birds when insects should pose a bigger problem to macroevolution. Since Insects compose over 60% of all biological species, one would believe that the theory for insect flight evolution would be very extensive. I am beginning to believe that insecta does create a problem for Macroevolution, because of evolutionists consitent need to change and revise the insectal phylogenetic tree.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2007 10:23 PM BattleAxeDime has replied
 Message 4 by anglagard, posted 12-12-2007 10:46 PM BattleAxeDime has replied
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 12-13-2007 8:28 AM BattleAxeDime has replied

  
AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 37 (440404)
12-12-2007 10:11 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 37 (440408)
12-12-2007 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by BattleAxeDime
12-12-2007 9:02 PM


Check out
Stephen J. Gould
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This website
Page not found - American Atheists
And this (stonefly research)
http://www.rps.psu.edu/jun95/marden.html
Particularly the video.
Then ask questions.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-12-2007 9:02 PM BattleAxeDime has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 8:41 PM RAZD has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 4 of 37 (440410)
12-12-2007 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by BattleAxeDime
12-12-2007 9:02 PM


A Few From Peer-Reviewed Journals
After you have read RAZD's resources available online, you may want to actually follow up on insect wing evolution by visiting a university library and seeking out these articles:
Rowing locomotion by a stonefly that possesses the ancestral pterygote condition of co-occurring wings and abdominal gills. By: MARDEN, JAMES H.; THOMAS, MICHAEL A.. Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, Jun2003, Vol. 79 Issue 2, p341-349, 9p; DOI: 10.1046/j.1095-8312.2003.00192.x;
Diverse Adaptations of an Ancestral Gill: A Common Evolutionary Origin for Wings, Breathing Organs, and Spinnerets. By: Damen, Wim G.M.; Saridaki, Theodora; Averof, Michalis. Current Biology, Oct2002, Vol. 12 Issue 19, p1711, 6p;
Form And Function Of Insect Wings, The Evolution Of Biological Structures. By: Wootton, Robin. Systematic Entomology, Jul2000, Vol. 25 Issue 3, p406-407, 6p; DOI: 10.1046/j.1365-3113.2000.00121-2.x;
Evolutionary origin of insect wings from ancestral gills. (cover story) By: Averof, Michalis; Cohen, Stephen M.. Nature, 2/13/97, Vol. 385 Issue 6617, p627, 4p, 6 diagrams, 11bw;
Surface-skimming stoneflies: A possible intermediate stage in insect flight evolution. By: Marden, James H.; Kramer, Melissa G.. Science, 10/21/94, Vol. 266 Issue 5184, p427, 4p, 2 charts, 1 diagram, 4 graphs, 6bw;

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-12-2007 9:02 PM BattleAxeDime has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 8:52 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 5 of 37 (440451)
12-13-2007 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BattleAxeDime
12-12-2007 9:02 PM


I am beginning to believe that insecta does create a problem for Macroevolution, because of evolutionists consitent need to change and revise the insectal phylogenetic tree.
Why should this represent a problem? There are a hell of a lot of insects and more genetic information on them is being gathered all the time, this is bound to lead to a lot of revision of phylogenetic trees, especially ones based principally on gross morphology.
Just to add to the many suggested links there is an interesting review in PNAS looking at different theories of insect wing origins and how some can be tested through developmental approaches, (Jockusch and Ober, 2004).
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-12-2007 9:02 PM BattleAxeDime has replied

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 Message 9 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 8:28 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 6 of 37 (440453)
12-13-2007 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by anglagard
12-12-2007 10:46 PM


Re: A Few From Peer-Reviewed Journals
I am already aware of all the information there is on Plecoptera. It's just a minor order sunk deep in the Neopterous stock, and has little to do with insect evolution as a whole. That one source "Form and Function of Insect wings, The Evolution of Biological Structures" Sounds interesting though. Thank You.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by anglagard, posted 12-12-2007 10:46 PM anglagard has not replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 7 of 37 (440456)
12-13-2007 9:08 AM


Confused
Why is there all this obsession with Stoneflies? Could someone please send a link to an up-to-date Phylogenetic tree. The information doesn't seem to make any sense when compared to my tree.

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Wounded King, posted 12-13-2007 10:45 AM BattleAxeDime has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 8 of 37 (440471)
12-13-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by BattleAxeDime
12-13-2007 9:08 AM


Insect Phylogeny
The tree of life website has a very nice nested phylogeny for winged insects but you need to browse through the various levels to see it all. I'm not sure where there is a detailed phylogeny of the winged insect, or insecta in general.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 9:08 AM BattleAxeDime has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 8:40 PM Wounded King has replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 9 of 37 (440603)
12-13-2007 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
12-13-2007 8:28 AM


Missing link
Insect wings are an evolutionarily significant novelty whose origin is not recorded in the fossil record. Insects with fully developed wings capable of flight appear in the fossil record in the upper Carboniferous (ca. 320 million years ago), by which time they had already diversified into more than 10 orders, at least 3 of which are still extant.
I find this exerpt from your link the most interesting. This is a massive gap in the fossil record. 10 new orders of flying animals. That's a lot of missing links. Evolutionists should be more concerned about this than the missing link between ape and man.
Edited by BattleAxeDime, : I accidently repeated the same text multiple times. Maybe something wrong with my browser.
Edited by BattleAxeDime, : I accidently repeated the same text multiple times. I was using improper HTML coding

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 8:49 PM BattleAxeDime has replied
 Message 13 by Omnivorous, posted 12-13-2007 8:53 PM BattleAxeDime has replied
 Message 30 by mobioevo, posted 12-14-2007 5:03 PM BattleAxeDime has not replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 10 of 37 (440605)
12-13-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Wounded King
12-13-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Insect Phylogeny
Pterygota only provided phylogeny on paleopterous. The whole theory of the wing development from gills only applies to the Paleopterous stock, the Plecopterans, and maybe Trichopterans. I want some information on the devolopment of wings in neoptera.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Wounded King, posted 12-13-2007 10:45 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Wounded King, posted 12-14-2007 4:28 AM BattleAxeDime has replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 11 of 37 (440606)
12-13-2007 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
12-12-2007 10:23 PM


I had already watched the videos, and read all the material from our previous conversation, which I came away from unsatisfied.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2007 10:23 PM RAZD has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 37 (440607)
12-13-2007 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by BattleAxeDime
12-13-2007 8:28 PM


Re: Missing link
Evolutionists should be more concerned about this than the missing link between ape and man.
Why?
Problems such as you mention add no weight to any other possible model, and so far Creationists have never been able to offer any model.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 8:28 PM BattleAxeDime has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 11:49 PM jar has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 13 of 37 (440608)
12-13-2007 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by BattleAxeDime
12-13-2007 8:28 PM


Re: Missing link
BattleAxeDime writes:
I find this exerpt from your link the most interesting. This is a massive gap in the fossil record. 10 new orders of flying animals. That's a lot of missing links.
Gee, you could fit a God in a gap that big!
Evolutionists should be more concerned about this than the missing link between ape and man.
Sure, we're sweating bullets.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 8:28 PM BattleAxeDime has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Chiroptera, posted 12-13-2007 10:22 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 18 by BattleAxeDime, posted 12-13-2007 11:59 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 37 (440631)
12-13-2007 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Omnivorous
12-13-2007 8:53 PM



Gee, you could fit a God in a gap that big!
BWAHAHAHAHA *cough cough hack GAK!*
Hee hee hee hee hee.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Omnivorous, posted 12-13-2007 8:53 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
spitze
Junior Member (Idle past 5759 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 12-13-2007


Message 15 of 37 (440637)
12-13-2007 10:48 PM


"The Missing Link"
The missing link is a myth, or at least a twisted form of the truth. Notice how many times "the missing link" has been found. This is because every time scientists find a the bones of something close to a modern human there is still a gap between that and homo sapien and hence a "missing link"

Replies to this message:
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