Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8951 total)
754 online now:
Coragyps, DrJones*, dwise1, jar, PaulK, Thugpreacha (AdminPhat) (6 members, 748 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 866,860 Year: 21,896/19,786 Month: 459/1,834 Week: 459/315 Day: 55/82 Hour: 5/13


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 156 (191395)
03-14-2005 6:10 AM


Jar wanted me to start this one.

Lets discuss the meaning and misinterpretations, if any, that surround the most famous scripture in the Bible: John 3:16
HERE ARE SEVERAL TRANSLATIONS:

NIV writes:

John 3:16-18= "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


KJV writes:

John 3:16= For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


American Standard writes:

John 3:16= For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.


TheMessage writes:

"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again.

To me, this basically means that God-understood by me as the monotheistic Creator of the Universe, loved all of humanity so much that He allowed His Son(Same Spirit, made flesh) to take on all of our faults, hangups, and shortcomings so that
whosoever believes in Him will not spiritually whither and die.
What do you think, Jar?

Whosoever means who so chooses. All were called but all have yet to choose. Many are called but few are chosen. Meaning, to me at least, that all are called, yet it is foreknown that all do not respond.

Edited by Phat, : Fixed quote


"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-14-2005 4:22 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 4 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-14-2005 4:51 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 6 by trent13, posted 03-14-2005 6:45 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Monk, posted 03-14-2005 7:45 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 03-14-2005 11:41 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 102 by celestialGyoud, posted 10-16-2008 4:50 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 103 by Greatest I am, posted 11-03-2008 10:19 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 107 by celestialGyoud, posted 02-17-2012 3:58 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 111 by Jon, posted 02-17-2012 5:38 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 127 by kofh2u, posted 02-16-2013 8:15 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 156 (191520)
03-14-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
03-14-2005 4:22 PM


jar writes:

Can we all agree that John 3:16 is often quoted and that, like the proverbial Burma Shave signs, is ubiquitous?


Sure. One guy even holds it up on national TV at football games.
Not sure why, though. If football is so evil, why is HE at the game?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-14-2005 4:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 03-14-2005 6:52 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 156 (191640)
03-15-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
03-15-2005 12:36 AM


Re: i'm confused.
Jar writes:

I'm not looking to resolve the question right now, only to establish that there are at least two ways the single line can be interpreted when seen isolated, out of context. Unless we can get that established I see little hope of progress.

As a Christian who is 70% literalist, I say that ...believes in Him means Jesus, because Jesus is the only way to God. Jesu Himself says that no one comes to the Father except through Him. This is the exclusionist Christian view, but if you eliminate Jesus as the necessary door, you arrive at relativistic spirituality that is based on the works of a "good" heart and the philosophies of man. Sorry, but I am at odds with that belief because it is impossible to accomplish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 12:36 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 8:24 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 156 (191643)
03-15-2005 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
03-15-2005 7:28 AM


Re: i'm confused.
PD writes:

IMO, our anti-Jewish author was trying to make Jesus different than the past kings who were called "son of God."

Nobody can be a member of the family until and unless all imperfection is out of them. We are all not related to God in a familial sense because we have tainted blood. Only a virgin birth and sinless blood could qualify. The Jews did not reject Christ because of superior theology or even uncertain meaning. They were unwilling to lay their tradition and intellect at the foot of the man who was the path for them. He seemed so common.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 03-15-2005 7:28 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by purpledawn, posted 03-15-2005 2:01 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 156 (191645)
03-15-2005 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
03-15-2005 8:22 AM


Re: i'm confused.
The transition at 12 and 13 shows my point that not just anyone can be called a son of God because none of us came from heaven! I see no disruption in the flow. Jesus is introducing Himself to Nicodemus. If you view Jesus as a human philosopher, then I can see your point. Some of us believe that He was no human philosopher. To be born again involves surrender of any human wisdom and philosophy when it differs from the living Spirit of God.
PD writes:

IMO, making belief in Jesus as a deity an additional requirement was a way to keep most Jews out of the club.

OK, I see your point that Jesus complicated a belief in God...but Jesus addressed this when He declared that knowing Him was as knowing the Father. Jews were never kept out of the club...they simply were too proud to join. Human nature, again.
I'm not picking on Jews either. Intellectuals and religious folk today have the same problem.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-15-2005 06:35 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 8:22 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 9:14 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 156 (191703)
03-15-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Monk
03-15-2005 1:21 PM


Re: John 3:15
It would seem to me that if the Son of Man was in Heaven then that would not refer to any of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 1:21 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 2:31 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 156 (191869)
03-16-2005 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
03-15-2005 5:26 PM


Re: John 3:15
jar writes:

Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.

Well, this flies in the face of literally hundreds of thousands of Christians throughout the ages. We could say that none of them bothered to "study" the origin of their Bibles...OR...we could say that you are treading in deep water by attempting to intellectualize a spiritual utterance. Again, I remind you that critique of the Gospels leads to the reduction of Christianity to humanist philosophy vs absolute truth. You have normally had some good spiritual insights, but it seems to me that you believe that Christianity is just good ole homespun philosophy. I say, rather, that there is a spiritual impartation that most of the educated Jews...and intellectuals of this day and age...missed.

Do you see any other way to interpret it?

Scripture is not for private interpretation.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-16-2005 02:45 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 5:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 8:23 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 50 by Monk, posted 03-16-2005 12:41 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 156 (191870)
03-16-2005 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
03-15-2005 5:41 PM


Re: John 3:15
PD writes:

it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.

Oh? And how clear can this be? The problem with literalists, as you probably see them, is that they ignorantly lift the Bible up to be as God. The problem that they may see with you, however, is that you have reduced all scripture to fall under the auspices of human wisdom. The entire point is this: Human wisdom is tainted by original sin, and humans can not even be righteous, much less right, without the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

Again, as I said to Jar, to allow such to occur reduces the theology of Christianity and the proper homage to the Holy Spirit to be reduced to humanist philosophy and do-good mentality that tells man that if he acts good, he will get to Heaven.

It is not a matter of trying. It is a matter of trusting. If we cannot trust the scriptures, we still need to place our intellects at the foot of the cross and allow the Spirit to raise us up rather than privately interpreting scripture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 03-15-2005 5:41 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 03-16-2005 7:56 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 156 (192061)
03-17-2005 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
03-16-2005 8:23 AM


Re: John 3:16, Paulianity, and Sheep/Goats
Jar writes:

So far no one has been able to show any absolute truths but I'm always willing to consider one if you can produce it.

How about John 3:16? How can this NOT be an absolute truth?

Jar writes:

It's not about profession of faith, or being a Christian, it's about behavior. It ain't what you say, it's what you do.


Paul reconciles the fact that behavior without relational impartation is never enough. It ain't what you do, but in whose name or Spirit you ultimately do it!
NIV writes:

Rom 3:10-11
10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
(from New International Version)


And before you trot out the sheep and goats scripture, keep in mind that that scripture was told to believing Jews who needed to perform works based on their own religion. Some say that the reason that the End is referred to is because the Rapture of the Church will have already taken place and the Jews and the unbelievers are all that is left.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-17-2005 12:36 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 8:23 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 03-17-2005 8:44 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 156 (192132)
03-17-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
03-17-2005 8:44 AM


Re: John 3:16
Messiahs Covenant Community writes:

When John says, 'To all who received Him, to those who believed on His name, He gave the right to become children of God' (1:12), he is not telling us of a new soteriology, but a new people! John sets this fact in the context of Jewish unbelief. Verse 11: His own pretty much rejected Him. Verse 12: But don’t let that get you down. That only means that now anybody can become 'one of His own.' Verse 13: It doesn’t matter where you were born, in or out of Israel, if you’re born of God.

Similarly, John 3:16 sometimes tortures those who take their starting point in election rather than in the covenant. Poor souls! Just read it with all that’s been said in mind and there is no need to twist or be twisted. 'God so loved the world (not just Israel) that He gave His only begotten Son (His Word, His covenant – cf. Isaiah 42:6), that whosoever (not just Jews) believes in Him (apart from circumcision) should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world (all nations, indiscriminately; not all individuals) through Him (the Word of God made flesh)

The Gospel of the Kingdom was being expanded. God had not yet concluded Israel into unbelief, but already was proclaiming a message of salvation for the Gentiles--a message not understood at that time by anyone else. Later, Paul became the apostle to and for the Gentiles. All of the others,(12) were still proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom--Israel reigning on Earth--a process that was to be put on hold for two thousand years +.
This is why the early Bible (pre-ten commandments) was written about all people, the O.T. after the Law until the coming of the Messiah was written to Jews, and Pauls Epistles were written primarily to Gentile believers. Revelation again is written for the remnant of Jews left after the Rapture of the Church. But that is another thread topic! :)

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-17-2005 10:26 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 03-17-2005 8:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 03-17-2005 2:08 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 156 (192296)
03-18-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
03-17-2005 8:44 AM


Re: John 3:16
And if we finally agree on a meaning, it is still not an Absolute Truth but rather an Absolute Belief.
Sigh....The living Christ may well be an absolute truth, but I suppose that in order to be P.C. and not offend anyone, we can leave it as a belief!

Now...you ask where is the condemnation? In context, there was at that time no condemnation for those who believed and who strived for spirituality. Am I missing anything?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 03-17-2005 8:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by purpledawn, posted 03-18-2005 11:04 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 76 by jar, posted 03-18-2005 8:28 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 156 (192318)
03-18-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by purpledawn
03-18-2005 11:04 AM


Re: John 3:16
What were they supposed to believe at that time:
That what Jesus taught about the coming kingdom was true?
That Jesus was the son of God?
That the son of God was named Jesus?

How were they to strive for spirituality at that time?


As Jews, they were to observe their law. They were to search the scriptures and believe in the Messiah.
This would be an impartation. Just as flesh and blood did not cause Peter to believe in Christ, so too flesh and blood(intellect) be a cause for the belief to germinate. Impartation was the road to understanding, and few found it. (Or received it)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by purpledawn, posted 03-18-2005 11:04 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by purpledawn, posted 03-18-2005 12:48 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 156 (440644)
12-13-2007 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
03-15-2005 9:14 AM


John 3 in context
Jar writes:

Would it help to step through John 3 from the beginning?

This is a good topic to raise from the dead! :p

Does anyone have any fresh insights?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 9:14 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 156 (487800)
11-05-2008 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Greatest I am
11-03-2008 10:19 AM


Sometimes I wonder
Honestly, sometimes I wonder where you come up with this stuff! :rolleyes:

Yes, Jesus was very much human. Was He exactly like you or I, however?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Greatest I am, posted 11-03-2008 10:19 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Greatest I am, posted 11-05-2008 11:33 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 156 (653053)
02-17-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
03-16-2005 2:50 PM


Re: Just an aside on John
jar writes:

John itself is IMHO a complete redaction of Christianity as a whole. I personally have a very low opinion of John as inspired Christian Scripture.

What do you see as inspired scripture? In your belief, who inspires it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 2:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-17-2012 6:02 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019