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Author Topic:   Are thoughts transcendant?
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 127 of 142 (441591)
12-18-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Kitsune
12-18-2007 8:19 AM


What is consciousness? How do people here define it?
I can't, frankly, and that's part of the problem. We don't even know what it is we're trying to explain.
Many seem to take the reductionist view that consciousness is nothing more than neurons firing, and any questions we still have will be answered in those terms.
I think that's a characature of our position. I firmly believe that consciousness involves nothing but physical processes going on in the Brain - mostly, it seems, neurons firing - but although all these processes can be reduced to that level (or further, we can go down to cell chemistry or atomic physics) the necessary explanations don't exist at that level. This isn't special pleading, it's true of almost all interesting behaviours at the macro level - I defy anyone to provide a useful description of a car engine that operates entirely at the sub-atomic level, for example, but no-one is going around claiming special stuff is needed for a car engine.
So where does the thinking come from? The personality? Likes and dislikes? Resident reductionists, please explain to me how neurons firing can possibly encapsulate everything that is involved with being conscious and self-aware.
We don't know. No-one has yet provided a useful description of how the brain causes consciousness.
We can get back to telepathy too. If it is not to be dismissed outright, then it also presents some problems for reductionism.
Prove it under properly controlled lab conditions and we'll talk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 8:19 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 9:38 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 130 of 142 (441607)
12-18-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Kitsune
12-18-2007 9:29 AM


Re: What's wrong with neurons?
The trouble with this article is we have no references leading back to the actual data. What does "practically no brain at all" mean? How many neurons were there? What pathology of the ganglions was present?
Animals spend an inorndinate amount of energy running their brains; especially so in Humans - if we don't need it why would we have evolved to do that.
This "study" is taken from Nexus Magazine, are you familiar with it? I am. I have a copy in the other room, cover stories include "Hitler's Death Debunked" and "Crop Circles of 2007" - you'll excuse me if I don't consider it a reliable source. Even if true, what we have here is a collection of uncontrolled anecdotes.
Any links to the actual experiments? Psychic research has had positive results before, but everytime those results have vanished when errors in the experimental methods have been corrected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 9:29 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 12:56 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 141 of 142 (441932)
12-19-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Kitsune
12-18-2007 12:56 PM


Re: What's wrong with neurons?
Yes I am. I'd expect a skeptic to dismiss anything from it without even bothering to read it first, never mind whether or not it might contain any truth. Maybe someone else here will be willing to have a look.
I did read it. I found nothing of interest in it. Given that it's from a known unreliable source I'm not inclined to look further.
Not every anecdotal account of everything is wrong, though it's dismissed as such because of the "inherent unreliability" of anecdotes.
Of course not every anecdotal account is wrong. They are however completely meaningless as proof, for the very simple reason that you can prove anything with anecdotal evidence from the efficacy of antibiotics, through alien abduction to homeopathy. When you want to make extraordinary claims you need extraordinary evidence; a bunch of stories just won't cut it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 12:56 PM Kitsune has not replied

  
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