Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,441 Year: 3,698/9,624 Month: 569/974 Week: 182/276 Day: 22/34 Hour: 3/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are thoughts transcendant?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 10 of 142 (423452)
09-22-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
09-21-2007 3:57 PM


nemesis_juggernaut
This got me thinking about an old argument I had with a true skeptic who simply had to rationalize everything with biology. The argument was about love. I asked him what love was. He proceeded to give me some canned, unemotional response about areas of the brain light up under an MRI when shown pictures of loved ones. This, apparently, was tantamount to love to him-- firing synapses.
I countered that what was detected surely was not itself love, only evidence of the brain reacting to love. Sure, the pictures likely gave him pleasant thoughts which released endorphins, thus culminating in an ultimate happy and euphoric state. But that explained nothing about love itself, and moreover, what exactly it is.
I think perhaps you have misunderstood your friend the skeptic{ I could be wrong of course} since all he did was answer your question on what love is by giving you a physical picture of the biological activity underlying the emotion.
You say he gave a canned unemotional response yet what biological explanation would you give for love?
Indeed I will ask you the same question. What is love?
Is it the giddy feeling you get when a friend whom you know well says something to you that hints at or reveals a deep caring,even love, for you?
Is it the action of caring for people who are down on their luck and are helped by your efforts and who, without the efforts you make, would be lost to despair and loneliness?
Is it the bond felt by soldiers who ,under the terror of battle, feel intensely how completely dependent they are one upon one another and find themselves in love with those members who risk everything and stand their ground?
Is it the tenderness of being close to another as you relax after a hard day of caring for your young family and snuggle in one anothers arms to stare out the living room window at a thickening snow storm as a fire crackles in the fireplace while reflecting on how life could not be any better than the moment you now share?
Is it the physical intimacy you have with another human being and the pleasures that such relations produce?
If the physical firing of synapses accounts for these does that make the explanation invalid or just shallow? Or does it reflect that the firing of synapses entails such complex interactions of biology that the mind is staggered by the results? The explanation your friend gives is only dry and shallow if you look at it out of context with what it means in the real world.
Thoughts... What are they, really?
That would depend on what you consider thoughts {and love} to be.
If you consider that thoughts can be derailed by the application of chemicals or by physical trauma then the explanation that they are the result of electrochemical activity of the brain tissue in our skulls takes on meaning.
This is not to say that they are just electrochemical activity separate from the context of life but just the underlying structure that allows for the phenomena to occur.
In the same way that the alphabet and rules of grammar are not the same as Shakespeare's A Midsummer Nights Dream but only the explanation of that which allows for the story to be told in a physical sense so,too, is the explanation your skeptic offered you.
That you chose to view it out of context means that you have made it dry and shallow not him.
But there is still so much about thoughts that seem almost transcendent-- separate from the brain.
Ar you referring to the impression that our ideas and thoughts seem to float free in our skulls ,disconnected to our bodies? If so, a possible explanation would be that the brain has no nervous system within its tissues. Since we cannot get feedback from the brain through such a system it does not seem odd that the mind gives us the impression of being separate does it?

God does not exist until there is proof he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-21-2007 3:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 40 of 142 (424199)
09-26-2007 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Kitsune
09-22-2007 2:30 PM


LindaLou
If you are full of negativity then you draw negative events into your life, and the converse is true for positive thoughts.
This is not the case at all. All that occurs is when you view in negative terms you pay attention to negative things and the same is true of positive terms.
How you feel is a result your of outlook and not a function of how the world is. The world is neutral and we color the world in the way we do by choosing to look at it in terms of negative or positive.
Like the old adage of the glass that is half empty or half full dependent on how you view it what is missed is that the view is in reality exactly the same amount of water in both cases.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

God does not exist until there is proof he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Kitsune, posted 09-22-2007 2:30 PM Kitsune has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 46 of 142 (428055)
10-14-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Kitsune
09-26-2007 9:06 AM


LindaLou
I feel that to apply it across the board in one's life, however, means that you stand to miss out on some otherwise unobtainable truths.
That is the point though LL. How can we determine if the "unobtainable " is indeed truth or not if we do not apply scepticism in order to eliminate the chaff from the wheat?
In other words how do we determine what is actual and what is merely that which we would like it to be in spite of evidence to the contrary?
It is not as though a sceptic is inhuman and cold but there is no point in deluding oneself if that is indeed what we are doing by accepting things uncritically is it? It may be that the universe is itself inhuman and cold {though that seems to me to be a human assessment and not an actual one}. The universe may just be incapable of any human attachment at all.
I, for one, would love to believe that my parents are in a place seperate from our own where one day they will meet me once again and we can catch up on what has been missed. That said ,I am quite aware of how that desire could cloud my thinking when examining the claims of those who profess to KNOW that such things do indeed occur and that THEY have the answer.
To the contrary , it seems to me that the harder one investigates an actual... REAL.. phenomena the greater the evidence would side with it. When it fails to do so am I being unreasonable to eventually assume that phenomena is not likely at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Kitsune, posted 09-26-2007 9:06 AM Kitsune has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 132 of 142 (441626)
12-18-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Kitsune
12-18-2007 8:19 AM


LindaLou
I have a website featuring lectures by the neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran that gives an excellent overview of the work he does with brain damaged patients that I am sure you will find both fascinating an enlightening.It may lead to a better understanding of why the brain is capable of so much.
Take the time to go through each of the 5 lectures {Audio or text} and let me know what you think about it.
BBC - Radio 4 - Reith Lectures 2003 - The Emerging Mind
Also I am not sure if you got ahold of that other website I recommended to get an overview of science as a discipline so I will give it again here.
http://explorepdx.com/gates.html
Check out the area on science topics.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 8:19 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 1:03 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 136 of 142 (441664)
12-18-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Kitsune
12-18-2007 1:03 PM


LindaLou
. Sounds good in principle but I think they will have to work on clarification and adding links.
Actually the whole site is hyper linked to others and you will discover things along the way as little clues that pop out occasionally.
However the main thrust of the site is not to offer answers so much as it is to get you to think and discover for yourself and to think on multiple levels. There is much to be discovered here. I have been going over it for 3 years now and am still learning stuff.
I assure you that it is worth more than a cursory glance would reveal.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 1:03 PM Kitsune has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024