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Author Topic:   Christian Outreach on trial in Colorado
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1 of 10 (440479)
12-13-2007 11:31 AM


Colorado has had more than its share of news stories involving the hypocrisies and failures within Christian organized religion.

Recently, a disturbed young man, Matthew Murray, went on a mission of what he called "revenge" against a Christian community that neither understood nor helped him find mental sanity.
Gunman legally amassed weaponry in year's time
Evidently, the families of the victims and the dead gunmen met and reconciled, if that is possible. Link

To what extent are the Christian Pastors and churches responsible for this disturbed young mans final actions on earth?

Who is to blame? The overly strict parents? The Christian culture itself?

I hesitate to blame all christians, yet admit that this is our problem. If we are supposed to reach out to the needy and the hurting, where did we fail with this young man?


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AdminNem
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Message 2 of 10 (440781)
12-14-2007 2:51 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 3 of 10 (440784)
12-14-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-13-2007 11:31 AM


So many possible factors
To what extent are the Christian Pastors and churches responsible for this disturbed young mans final actions on earth?

It would be difficult to speculate in either direction without something evidential to go by.

Who is to blame? The overly strict parents? The Christian culture itself?

Who knows... He could have secretly been harboring feelings unbeknownst to every one else. He could have been beaten when he was a child. He could have possessed a disorder that accounted for a severe hormonal imbalance. He could have been living a duplicitous life and the anger and animosity became too much. There's so many factors that could have compounded other one's, leading to his horrific deed.

I hesitate to blame all christians, yet admit that this is our problem. If we are supposed to reach out to the needy and the hurting, where did we fail with this young man?

Sometimes the failure comes within the community. Sometimes the person has been given every opportunity in love. There is no single answer, I'm guessing. Let God judge the situation, be it good or bad.


“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 4 of 10 (440786)
12-14-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-13-2007 11:31 AM


Phat writes:

To what extent are the Christian Pastors and churches responsible for this disturbed young mans final actions on earth?

quote:
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

The implied answer is, "Yes, you are your brother's keeper. Yes, you are responsible."

If the Christian community claims him as a brother, they are responsible. If they claim only an exclusive clique as brothers, they've successfully abrogated responsibility (in their own minds).


Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
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jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 10 (440796)
12-14-2007 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-13-2007 11:31 AM


Holding back data?
In chat you posted a significant message from him. Is there some reason you did not quote it in the OP?


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 6 of 10 (440806)
12-14-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
12-14-2007 4:20 PM


Re: Holding back data?
There were like 10 articles on Matthew, and today when I went to look, I could only find this one. Also, after further research, I found this one.

I fail to see why you think I am holding back data.

What makes you think I am trying to somehow protect Christians? I certainly don't go all out to indict organized Christianity as being all fouled up, as you would probably do! ;)


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 10 (440810)
12-14-2007 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-14-2007 4:54 PM


Re: Holding back data?
I fail to see why you think I am holding back data.

Well, when you created this PNT you had JUST posted the relevant message in chat.

What makes you think I am trying to somehow protect Christians?

The fact that you censored the content you posted in chat when you created the PNT.

I certainly don't go all out to indict organized Christianity as being all fouled up, as you would probably do!

Again with unfounded assertions. I assume you can show where I have "indict organized Christianity as being all fouled up"?


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-14-2007 5:17 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 8 of 10 (440812)
12-14-2007 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-14-2007 5:04 PM


Re: Holding back data?
OK, I looked in the other paper and found the statement I shared with you in chat: This statement shows us a picture of the mental anguish of Matthew.
Matthew Murray writes:

"All I found in christianity was hate, abuse (sexual, physical, psychological, and emotional), hypocrisy, and lies," writes the poster

DyingChild_65 ends his rant by saying: "Like Cho, Eric Harris, Ricky Rodriguez and others, I'm going out to make a stand for the weak and the defenseless this is for all those young people still caught in the Nightmare of Christianity for all those people who've been abused and mistreated and taken advantage of by this evil sick religion Christian America this is YOUR Columbine."

The question is whether the blame should focus on Murrays alleged mental illness, which most churches are ill equipped to treat, or whether the church culture itself fueled the anguish.

I personally feel that Matthew was not given the love he so desperately sought through the church groups, but without knowing more details, I am not prepared to indict CCOI Christianity, which you yourself have said "teaches ignorance."

Edited by Phat, : spelling mistakes


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jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 10 (440816)
12-14-2007 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
12-14-2007 5:17 PM


well that's not the quote but...
It is a beginning. The quote I remember went into specifics of questioning and searching for a founded faith.

I personally feel that Matthew was not given the love he so desperately sought through the church groups, but without knowing more details, I am not prepared to indict CCOI Christianity, which you yourself have said "teaches ignorance."

Love may have been an issue, but if so, I doubt it played a big part. Love is very often simply a Shaitan's Bargain, a conditional deal. More importantly, was he taught that it is okay to question, to listen to Marilyn Manson, to disagree with dogma, to even reject the church's teachings?


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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Equinox
Member (Idle past 3251 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 10 of 10 (441652)
12-18-2007 1:00 PM


Christianity is to blame, but not for intent
Tragic cases like this bring up a difficult topic, which must be balanced carefully.

That topic is the role of fundamentalist religions in crimes like this.

A creepy realization when something like this comes up (like the texas woman the other year – Dena Schlosser- who severed the arms of her 10 month old baby girl), is that they often have untreated mental illness, and are active in fundamentalist Christianity. Remember Andrea Yates? She drowned her kids in the bathtub to “save” them from ending up in Hell. She had been preached at about the world going more and more to the devil, and if she didn’t kill them they may be corrupted in the future – so she sacrificed herself for her kids. The logic simply makes sense, and others have done that too.

Here is a recent associated press article on this phenomena:


Another study of 56 Michigan mothers referred for psychiatric evaluations from 1974-1976 after killing their children found nearly a fourth of them experienced religious delusions, said study co-author Dr. Catherine Lewis, an assistant professor at the University of Connecticut Health Center.
She said nearly all the women were Christian and many attended fundamentalist churches, but cautioned against assumptions.
"What isn't clear is what's causing what," she said. "Is the church causing people to develop these feelings or are people with these feelings more likely to gravitate toward a fundamentalist church?"
Yates, Laney and Schlosser all followed Christian fundamentalist teachings. So did their husbands, but with less zeal than their wives.

So, how do we balance the blame? The fundamentalist preachers involved, such as Michael Woroniecki in the case of Yates, are rarely if ever charged with anything. What about others close to the babies, who can see the family spiraling into this over time? And which causes which? Do deranged people like this preferentially move to fundamentalist churches, or do fundamentalist churches prevent treatment and indirectly cause things like this to happen? (like the autistic boy who was suffocated recently in a “prayer healing” to rid him of the demons, or the famous BTK serial killer who was the president of his local Lutheran church)

I have a friend who has Schizophrenia. She was brought up in the Pentecostal church, and for years her life was a nightmare because she was told the voices she heard were demons (and she of course believed it all). So of course she didn’t get treatment then, & things got worse. Had she not escaped that church on her own, tragic things could well have happened. Because of cases like that, and because the teachings line up so well with the results, my guess is that most of this correlation is not caused by certain people gravitating to these churches, but rather the lack of treatment, distorted worldview, and closed environment in these churches.

I think that what’s going on is that fundamentalist, Abrahamic religions tend to have doctrines that specifically take advantage of our evolutionary prejudices – such as seeing the world as good vs evil, or allowing aggression towards outsiders (heretics) as two examples. As such, they tend to discourage, not encourage, treatment for these mental problems, and are partly to blame in my mind – not because of evil intent, but because their magical thinking is so far out of step with the real world. It’s very difficult to work on this problem in the US because Christianity is so favored that even bringing up the problem is met with significant social repercussions.

My two cents-

-Equinox


  
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