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Author Topic:   The Right Way to Debunk
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 148 (440316)
12-12-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Kitsune
12-12-2007 12:43 PM


ganging up solutions
I do know that when someone here feels "ganged up" then the natural reaction is to go into defense mode. It's happened to me enough. You can't keep up with everyone's posts and you feel isolated and besieged. Maybe backing off a bit and giving some space would help. You could try inviting a creo onto The Great Debate maybe.
Yeah, I've seen both sides, and it isn't pretty, no matter which side you are on. I also thought the Great Debate (GD) could be a solution, but then I got accused of trying to get every newcomer into a 1:1 debate when that was not the case. I've also suggested GD in 1:2 or 2:2 formats.
You could also do "tag-team" style debates(most GD's also have a peanut gallery) or just limit the number of replies (3 replies) with only one per poster (ie - make it good, make it count, no fluff, no chat, no off-topic etc)?
And springboarding from you, there's a problem when someone decides to turn off the rational part of their brain and deny everything.
That's when I post
de·lu·sion -noun1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
And point out that it's a matter of choice, a choice based on how you determine statements are true: do you compare them to facts of reality or to fixed beliefs? How do you test for reality?
I explicitly pointed out what Hovind's fake credentials are, supported by evidence, and still they defend him. I honestly don't get it.
So they aren't interested in reality, big surprise eh? Their "test" of statements is not whether it is true in reality, but whether it is "true" to their preconceptions.
I tried posting the Clergy Letter too, thinking that some sense from other Christians might help, but they just looked up the denominations of the people who have signed it and said they are liberal infidels who allow homosexual marriage.
Yet these are the same people they happily include as christian when they tell you that the US is 90% christian. So it's easy to expose their hypocrisy about what they "count" as christian - is it belief in christ and his teaching, or is there an additional criteria?
These people are in their own world and I'm not going to shake it. However, maybe the sorts of creos who come to a forum like this are generally more "malleable" and open to seeing the flaws in their beliefs? Or perhaps some are just so arrogant that they think they're going to teach the scientists a thing or two, I don't know.
By and large that is true for all creationists I have debated with here. There are a few that have changed, but coming here only made that change easier, not cause it.
People come here with their complete world views, and you will not change them with an argument on the internet without their willful participation.
So you don't post to change those you are debating with, you post to make information available for those who are looking and ready to change - whether they post or just read.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 148 (440330)
12-12-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Kitsune
12-12-2007 3:45 PM


debate format
We're certainly on a Gish stampede but it's because they regurgipost passages, which only takes a second, and refuting them can take hours for someone like me who isn't a scientist and has to trawl the web for info.
You can create your own "great debate format" by stating at the start of your post that while many people might reply, you will only respond to the first one, and anyone that feels their point has not been covered can respond to that one. And then stick to that. Invite them here if they don't like that format.
Keep your point simple and focus on one thing at a time, so that you don't get a long response.
Enjoy.
Note that the Greenland and Antarctic ice are more than 40,000 years old, a lot older, and they agree on climate with age.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 148 (440348)
12-12-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Kitsune
12-12-2007 3:59 PM


okay you talked me into it ...
The cost of Evolution, and other things.
typical fundie rant, typical off topic response. LOL.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : added link

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Kitsune, posted 12-12-2007 3:59 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 148 (440528)
12-13-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Kitsune
12-13-2007 12:51 PM


that other forum
I've had to fess up. Russ is going to find a way to get rid of us I suspect.
I saw. You could also invite them here to share their knowledge. Then they can see how this forum operates.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 39 of 148 (440532)
12-13-2007 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
12-13-2007 10:38 AM


Re: in regards to lurkers
The approach requires avoiding the context of the assertion as much as is possible. The appropriate reply to the repeated assertion, "Evolution is just a fairy tale for grownups," is not, "Evolution is not a fairy tale, it is science." As soon as you say "fairy tale" you're just banging home that false assertion one more time.
Rather, just use the simple reply, "Evolution is a well established scientific theory founded upon evidence gathered over more than a century and a half."
To repeat: when confronted with someone in parrot mode, avoid their context at all costs in your response. To do otherwise just helps cement the false assertion in the minds of others.
Like dealing with Simple, you need to talk past him, in part because he dodges everything rational.
One can also say "This is still wrong, and just repeating it doesn't make it any more valid."
Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 66 of 148 (440935)
12-15-2007 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
12-15-2007 8:23 AM


adding a (logical) touch
I have always believed, ever since I discovered that "skeptic" was a label people were applying to themselves with pride, that it is a horribly misleading term. When people hear "skeptic" they don't think "honest seeker of truth," they think naysayer, doubter and dour negativist, and that's not what skeptics are. A skeptic is someone who requires quality evidence for what he believes to be true about the real world, and that's all.
That quality evidence has to fit into a logical, consistent framework as well. The evidence may be high quality but not fit the framework, and that is cause to be skeptical about one or the other.
Enjoy.
Having fun with Russ? There's a test case for methods of debunking ...

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 96 of 148 (441127)
12-16-2007 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Percy
12-16-2007 1:22 PM


Don't play their game
The topic is how to debunk,
The first thing to do is stick with your strengths, facts and evidence.
The second thing is not to get sucked in to their fantasy. Don't discuss the bible for instance, because anyone can interpret it any number of ways (and people do), but there is no way to validate one opinion over another, so it just becomes a shouting match.
Third (looks in mirror) keep it brief, simple. Leave the exposes for a new thread opening.
Forth keep focus on what the topic is and hold to it.
Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Kitsune, posted 12-16-2007 1:42 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 102 of 148 (441171)
12-16-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Kitsune
12-16-2007 1:42 PM


Re: Don't play their game
You seem to be enjoying yourself on the other forum RAZD. I've certainly enjoyed reading your posts. It looks like the opposition is starting to melt away due to lack of ways to rebut what you are saying.
Yep, no head banging yet (on my side anyway) .
As a technique to apply to this topic ...
DO
(1) pick a single point that you know well,
(2) focus on it to the exclusion of other points made,
(3) keep repeating the issue until you get either meltdown or a response.
(4) and only address the parts of the various responses that address the issue.
(5) have fun. It ain't worth it if it ain't fun.
DON'T
(1) play their game
(2) argue about the bible
(3) feel you have to answer every reply, no matter how well written.
(4) post when you are tired or upset
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Kitsune, posted 12-16-2007 1:42 PM Kitsune has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 122 of 148 (441481)
12-17-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
12-17-2007 5:45 PM


The wall, teaching cats to swim and cognitive dissonance
But you seem to think exactly the same way they do.
What we are dealing with really is a more fundamental problem than the way "they" think. It applies to anyone that comes up against the wall of some core foundation for their world view. The effect is more like being unconsciously turned by the wall than of choosing to turn.
It's is very much like trying to teach cats to swims, some few will learn, fewer still will be happy about it, but most will exhibit severe, instinctive, avoidance behavior: they don't even want to think about the possibility of swimming.
The problem is cognitive dissonance:
quote:
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term describing the uncomfortable tension that may result from having two conflicting thoughts at the same time, or from engaging in behavior that conflicts with one's beliefs.
In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs.
The maximum possible dissonance is equal to the resistance to change of the less resistant cognition; therefore, once dissonance reaches a level that overcomes the resistance of one of the cognitions involved, that cognition will be changed or eliminated, and dissonance will be reduced.
This leads some people who feel dissonance to seek information that will reduce dissonance and avoid information that will increase dissonance. People who are involuntarily exposed to information that increases dissonance are likely to discount that information, either by ignoring it, misinterpreting it, or denying it.
(Wikipedia, 2007)
We've seen this kind of behavior even if we haven't recognized it for what it is.
The chain breaks at the weakest link, and when dealing with new information coming from a new source, the weakest link is trust. It is easier to believe that the information is false or the source is lying than that your core belief needs to change.
This also is the root cause for some people going off-topic. Getting a creationist to stay on topic about evolution is like teaching cats to swim. It is easier for them to discuss anything else within their safety zone that is remotely related than to deal with the issue, and I don't think it is a conscious act.
This relates directly back to the op, as this is one of the problems with finding the right way to debunk - dealing with people that are up against the wall and exhibiting severe, instinctive, avoidance behavior: they don't even want to think about the possibility of swimming.
And unless you are a cat that has learned to swim I think it would be very difficult to recognize this behavior in yourself, because you resolve cognitive dissonance in a way that seems rational to you.
I think Linda is learning to swim. And the only thing I have to say is (Bill Cosby voice, pitched high after diving into ice-cold water) "Come on in, dear, the water's fffine ..."
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : the

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 2:44 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 137 of 148 (442005)
12-19-2007 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Kitsune
12-18-2007 2:44 AM


Re: The wall, teaching cats to swim and cognitive dissonance
Hey Linda, does it usually get this quiet over at the Russ Tanner Emporium for Herbal Cures and Evolution Bashing? Or is massive cognitive dissonance causing sever avoidance behavior?
Heh. Started a new thread on age ...
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Kitsune, posted 12-18-2007 2:44 AM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by obvious Child, posted 12-20-2007 7:47 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 141 of 148 (442377)
12-20-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by obvious Child
12-20-2007 7:47 PM


Re: The wall, teaching cats to swim and cognitive dissonance
if you can't find fun in what you do, maybe you shouldn't do it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by obvious Child, posted 12-20-2007 7:47 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by obvious Child, posted 12-20-2007 10:38 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 143 of 148 (442383)
12-20-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by obvious Child
12-20-2007 10:38 PM


Re: The wall, teaching cats to swim and cognitive dissonance
maybe I'm just a sado-masochistic equine necrophiliac ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by obvious Child, posted 12-20-2007 10:38 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
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