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Author Topic:   "Is 'genetic determinism' empirically valid, and is it essential to the "Modern Synth
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5528 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 9 of 49 (442459)
12-21-2007 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Elmer
12-20-2007 7:54 PM


"For the good of the species"?
Elmer writes:
My concern is primarily evolution, that is, the origins of increased productivity wrt to the organism in terms of its innate goals--to survive, thrive, and reproduce individually, and to serve, in its fashion, the goals of the collectivity [taxon, population, etc., possibly including the biosphere entire].
Hi Elmer,
I like your OP question all right, but are you aware of the "for-the-good-of-the-species" fallacy?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Elmer, posted 12-20-2007 7:54 PM Elmer has replied

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 Message 10 by Elmer, posted 12-21-2007 1:56 PM Fosdick has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5528 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 11 of 49 (442516)
12-21-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Elmer
12-21-2007 1:56 PM


Re: "For the good of the species"?
Hi Elmer,
Here’s one statement against the “for-the-good-of-the-species” concept:
Why are adaptations not for the good of the species?
quote:
Adaptations evolve through the differential reproduction of alternative alleles within a population or species. Thus, organisms acquire properties which allow them to out-reproduce members of their own species, not members of other species. It is theoretically possible for the differential survival of gene pools (species) to result in the evolution of organism features which would promote species survival at a personal reproductive cost to individual members of the species; it is extremely unlikely, however, that this process is responsible for the incredible array of complex functionality evinced by sexually reproducing, diploid species (Williams 1966). The length of time between speciation or extinction events is vastly longer than the length of time between generations. Consequently, differential reproduction of alleles within species can produce complex functionality much faster than can differential reproduction between species. An allele that provided a benefit to the species at an expense to the individual would be driven to extinction long before it could have a measurably positive impact on the survival of the species. (There are other forms of group selection, however, that are worth considering; see, e.g., Sober and Wilson Unto Others).
  —Edward H. Hagen
This seems relevant to your OP question because it pertains to cause and effect. And, wrt, don't you suppose that a "cause" and a "facilitation" are conflations of each other? When a single gene can alter a mouse's natural fear of cats, for example, did that gene "cause" the change or "facilitate" it. Does a sperm "cause" a woman to become pregnant or does it only "facilitate" it?
”HM

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 Message 10 by Elmer, posted 12-21-2007 1:56 PM Elmer has replied

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 Message 14 by Elmer, posted 12-21-2007 7:31 PM Fosdick has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5528 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 15 of 49 (442616)
12-21-2007 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Elmer
12-21-2007 7:31 PM


Re: "For the good of the species"?
Elmer writes:
The issue is the mechanism/engine that drives the origins of adaptive phenotypic traits that cause or contribute to increased productivity, including increased "differential reproduction".
Boy, do I agree with you, Elmer! And, yet, what an impossible question it is”this question of driving forces and mechanisms.
"Species survival" is not a matter of "personal reproductive cost", but of collective, i.e., species, "productivity", or lack of same. Just so long as the birth rate equals the death rate, it does not matter to 'species survival' just which individuals supply the requisite number of offspring, just as long as at least some do. Connecting his " differential survival of gene pools (species)" to his "would promote species survival' is simply uttering the inanity, 'differential survival of species would promote species survival'. This stuff is so stupid that it's giving me a headache!
Elmer, I think he's refuting species survivalism.
IAC, the nature of causation is an interesting and difficult question. I still prefer Aristotle's approach to it. But, thankfully, in this thread we only have to decide whether or not random, accidental, unintentional genetic mutations can and do deterministically and mechanically cause the origin of particular, novel, productive, and adaptive traits and functions.
In a biological world where cause and effect are organically blurred, digital genetic determinism is one of the precious few options we have to consider on a cause-and-effect basis. Otherwise it's either the woo-woos of trait "plasticity" or the raw gears of chemistry that randomly make humans out of apes and eukaryotes out of prokaryotes.
But I have to say that your kind of questioning is fairly agreeable to my own.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Elmer, posted 12-21-2007 7:31 PM Elmer has not replied

  
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