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Author Topic:   Man in gods image... How ?
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 61 of 82 (439154)
12-07-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
12-07-2007 1:55 PM


Your kidding, no!
quote:
EX/20. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. 3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; 5 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments. {S} 6 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. {P}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 1:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 2:57 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 62 of 82 (439167)
12-07-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by IamJoseph
12-07-2007 2:22 PM


In Message 59, you claimed that "there are numerous laws in the OT which clearly dispell any notion of divine personification." While one (1) is technically a number, the English word "numerous" usually implies more than one (1). Several more examples would be appropriate.
And does your one (1) example deal with "man in God's image" at all? We're not talking about graven images made by us. We're talking about how God supposedly graved us.
Give us some quotes on that, please.
Edited by Ringo, : Multiplied "quote".

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by IamJoseph, posted 12-07-2007 2:22 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by IamJoseph, posted 12-07-2007 6:26 PM ringo has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 63 of 82 (439203)
12-07-2007 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
12-07-2007 2:57 PM


No two commandments mean the same thing; nothing is superflous here. However, there are other commandments and statutes which are 'in parallel' with that, such as 'no man shall see me and live'; 'I am the Lrd - there is no other'; 'Gd is one'- OT;'Gd is not like man [Samuel]; etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 2:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 8:01 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 82 (439225)
12-07-2007 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by IamJoseph
12-07-2007 6:26 PM


IamJoseph writes:
However, there are other commandments and statutes which are 'in parallel' with that, such as 'no man shall see me and live'; 'I am the Lrd - there is no other'; 'Gd is one'- OT;'Gd is not like man [Samuel]; etc.
Give citations please. From the little snippets you've posted, I don't see anything about man in God's image. Two say there is only one God - no mention of man at all. A third says God is not like a man - nothing about images there.
Give citations and {preferably} full quotes.
And try to find something about man in God's image.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by IamJoseph, posted 12-07-2007 6:26 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by IamJoseph, posted 12-08-2007 3:38 AM ringo has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 65 of 82 (439286)
12-08-2007 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
12-07-2007 8:01 PM


quote:
Give citations and {preferably} full quotes.
And try to find something about man in God's image.
There are numerous portions dealing with man and God's image. In Genesis ch 1 it applies to speech. Elsewhere it is contextual. The 2nd C from Sinai reflects all these too:
quote:
6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, can proclaim--let him declare it, and set it in order for Me--since I appointed the ancient people? And the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have I not announced unto thee of old, and declared it? And ye are My witnesses. Is there a God beside Me? Yea, there is no Rock; I know not any. 9 They that fashion a graven image are all of them vanity, and their delectable things shall not profit; and their own witnesses see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. 10 Who hath fashioned a god, or molten an image that is profitable for nothing?
quote:
EZEK 28/ 2 'Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre: Thus saith the Lord GOD: because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said: I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the heart of the seas; yet thou art man, and not God, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God--
quote:
1 SAM 15/ 29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man, that He should repent.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 12-07-2007 8:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 12-08-2007 10:24 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 82 (439330)
12-08-2007 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by IamJoseph
12-08-2007 3:38 AM


You haven't explained what any of those passages has to do with the topic. How does each one relate to God reflected in man?
Isaiah 44 talks about graven images of God. Ezekiel 28 and 1 Samuel 15 talk about man being different from God. What we're looking for here is how man is similar to God.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by IamJoseph, posted 12-08-2007 3:38 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by IamJoseph, posted 12-08-2007 9:16 PM ringo has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 67 of 82 (439462)
12-08-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
12-08-2007 10:24 AM


quote:
Isaiah 44 talks about graven images of God. Ezekiel 28 and 1 Samuel 15 talk about man being different from God. What we're looking for here is how man is similar to God.
Yes, these negate [impact] any premise of image of God; the 'HOW' of the thread title is thus catered to. Samuel states 'God is not like man' - meaning no image can represent God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 12-08-2007 10:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 12-08-2007 9:21 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 82 (439464)
12-08-2007 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by IamJoseph
12-08-2007 9:16 PM


IamJoseph writes:
Samuel states 'God is not like man' - meaning no image can represent God.
So you're saying that Samuel disagrees with Genesis, since Genesis clearly states that man is an image representing God:
quote:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by IamJoseph, posted 12-08-2007 9:16 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by IamJoseph, posted 12-08-2007 9:54 PM ringo has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 69 of 82 (439476)
12-08-2007 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
12-08-2007 9:21 PM


No contradiction here. Genesis v1 refers to speech, and its context is what separates the kinds of life forms listed there. There was no 'man' prior to v1 - nor are the animals and birds and fish, NOT in Gd's image - a non-sensical view here. If the interpretation of v1 is eronous and affirmed as such by other factors, it means:
WRONG WAY - GO BACK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 12-08-2007 9:21 PM ringo has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5105 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 70 of 82 (442591)
12-21-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
11-30-2007 10:39 AM


Bird man!
Hey there ringy
Ringo writes:
It seems clear that the authors described God in the fleshy image of a man.
This is what you would call an anthropomorphism (might not be spelt right)describing God in a human-like manner without actually meaning it literally. If God's image was meant to be taken as physical resemblance, then God does not look entirely like a modern homo sapiens:
"Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings," Psalm 17:8
Ths psalm is a poetic prayer to god, as the first verse and those follwing in chapter 17 show. If we conclude that the image of God means a physical or visual resemblance, then we need to ask were our wings went to.
Now this is thrown out the window when God th son (Jesus Christ) is considered; I doubt any on here would disagree that he has a human body.
A few of us wrote some good commentary on the image of God in the first few posts of this forum. I think i wrote the 13th one.
Got to go. Latertz

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 11-30-2007 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-21-2007 7:09 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 71 of 82 (442602)
12-21-2007 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by LudoRephaim
12-21-2007 5:57 PM


Re: Bird man!
Good to see you again, Ludo. Hope you're doing well.
Ludo writes:
If God's image was meant to be taken as physical resemblance, then God does not look entirely like a modern homo sapiens:
"Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings," Psalm 17:8
A lot of ancient gods had animal bits and pieces. That doesn't change the fact that they were (mostly) made in the image of man. Even the wings are still physical attributes.
Now this is thrown out the window when God th son (Jesus Christ) is considered; I doubt any on here would disagree that he has a human body.
Some would say He "had" a physical body.
And some would say that has nothing to do with God.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LudoRephaim, posted 12-21-2007 5:57 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by LudoRephaim, posted 12-22-2007 10:30 AM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5105 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 72 of 82 (442691)
12-22-2007 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
12-21-2007 7:09 PM


Re: Bird man!
Ringo writes:
a lot of ancient gods had animal bits and pieces. that doesn't change the fact that they were (mostly) made i the image of man. Even the wings are still physical attributes.
Good to see you to Ringo. I'm doing well.
It is true that a lot of ancient deities and monsters were depicted as mostly human with some animal traits. But the point is that if you are to take the image of God as being ultra literal, you would have to include both the human and the avian traits, which therefore renders the argument that the image of God means visual or physical resemblance to him a bit in question; both birds and humans would share in different forms of his image, yet Genesis 1 states that only man was made in his image.
the image of God was a term used in the ancient near east by rulers to show that they had rule over their subjects. It would be like "I King Nimrod am in the divine image of Marduk and therefore I have dominion over thee, my subjects!". Genesis one was stating something similar, for after God states that man should be made in his image, that he would have dominion over the animals of sky, land and sea (if you want a direct quote I will post it momentarily, but it is found in Genesis one).
ancient gods
a little lovecraftian, eh?
Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-21-2007 7:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 12-22-2007 10:52 AM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 82 (442696)
12-22-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by LudoRephaim
12-22-2007 10:30 AM


Re: Bird man!
LudoRephaim writes:
... both birds and humans would share in different forms of his image, yet Genesis 1 states that only man was made in his image.
No it doesn't. It only mentions man explicitly but it doesn't rule out any other animal being in God's image. It was written by men after all.
But the point is that if you are to take the image of God as being ultra literal, you would have to include both the human and the avian traits....
My point is that the traits we've been discussing are physical. An "image" implies physical traits. I'm just saying that if there is a woo-woo "spiritual" resemblance between man and God, I don't see it in Genesis 1.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by LudoRephaim, posted 12-22-2007 10:30 AM LudoRephaim has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by IamJoseph, posted 12-25-2007 12:48 AM ringo has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 74 of 82 (443444)
12-25-2007 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
12-22-2007 10:52 AM


Re: Bird man!
quote:
My point is that the traits we've been discussing are physical. An "image" implies physical traits. I'm just saying that if there is a woo-woo "spiritual" resemblance between man and God, I don't see it in Genesis 1.
When one deliberates and contemplates this deeply, they will arrive at the same conclusion as the OT prophets and sages did. This 'our image' refers to speech, a Godlike trait, which seperates humans from all other life forms.
It does not refer to any physical traits, which is why Darwin did not differentiate speech from skeletal and biological imprints, constituting a great error, and one which led to the wrong path: atheism and Polytheism; it also contradicts the 2nd Command from Sinai. Its proof is that genesis classifies humans a different species ['kind'], and there is only one difference here. Speech.
It is speech which gives humans the Gdlike trait of emulating creation, and become the most superior life form. It is also what God used to create the universe:
'AND THE LORD *SAID* LET THERE BE LIFE' [Gen].
There were no tools or elements at this time. But there was speech, which is the conduit of a WILL/ACTION/THOUGHT. Nothing happens w/o speech - no cars, planes, stars, galaxies, gravity or pineapples - nothing.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 12-22-2007 10:52 AM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Raphael, posted 12-28-2007 4:52 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 484 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 75 of 82 (444224)
12-28-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by IamJoseph
12-25-2007 12:48 AM


Re: Bird man!
Eh.....I'd like to propose that emotion is what makes us God's image, you could argue that some animals have emotion, but the emotions that make us human (I.E.) Guilt, Love, Hate, Care, etc. God does indeed have emotions, the main one being Love, the Bible says "God IS Love". The......Manifestation of the Love emotion probably feels love. The only reason we were created was to to Love god, and for God to Love us, so i think EMOTION is what makes us God's image, if you feel...otherwise....post after me.

Why Are We so Simple-Minded?
I Know it's Easy to Deny the Truth.............Search Your Heart for What You Believe to be True. Then, Considering Your Morals, Decide if this, in Your Heart of Hearts, is What you Truly Believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by IamJoseph, posted 12-25-2007 12:48 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by IamJoseph, posted 12-29-2007 1:57 AM Raphael has replied

  
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