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Author Topic:   Why was the world created?
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 46 of 59 (413113)
07-27-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
07-27-2007 5:16 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
As to the "before the Big Bang" question, I'm not sure that even has any meaning. It certainly has little to do with our world.

I was not talking about the creation of our solar system, I was talking about the matter that you claim existed "before the big bang." There had to be something before the big bang. If there was absolutely nothing before the big bang than you come back to my original question which was, how can something come from nothing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-27-2007 5:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 47 of 59 (413117)
07-27-2007 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
07-26-2007 11:29 AM


Re: Science is very credible.
Because it is inevitable.

Who says? Do you think that answer makes sense?

science doesn't say the world came from absolute nothingness.

If it did not than what did it come from? Who made that?

The laws of physics demand that the universe forms.

Again I ask, who says? Who wrote these laws of physics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2007 11:29 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Taz, posted 07-27-2007 7:34 PM Open MInd has not yet responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 31752
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 48 of 59 (413118)
07-27-2007 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 5:31 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
I was not talking about the creation of our solar system, I was talking about the matter that you claim existed "before the big bang."

I don't know where you got the idea I said anything about before the Big Bang.

There had to be something before the big bang. If there was absolutely nothing before the big bang than you come back to my original question which was, how can something come from nothing?

What does that have to do with either he OP where you asked "There seems to be many theories and explanations about "how" the world came into existence." or the topic which is "Why was the world created?"


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1627 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 49 of 59 (413140)
07-27-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 5:48 PM


Re: Science is very credible.
Open mind writes:

If it did not than what did it come from? Who made that?


Ok, you got me there. God made the universe. So... who made god?

Again I ask, who says? Who wrote these laws of physics?

The laws of physics are just representations to explain the repeating patterns and behaviors we see in nature. It's our way of making sense of what's happening around us.

In other words, there are no such things as laws of physics. They are completely human constructs to explain what we observe. Make sense?

Now that I have answered your question, it's time you answer mine. Why are unicorns pink?


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 50 of 59 (413175)
07-29-2007 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 5:12 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
You may not understand the concept of a religious perspective of a supreme being.

I think I do....

The idea is that this being cannot be completely understood by humans because humans were not given the ability to understand Him.

But THAT is exactly MY point.
At some point you will reach a point where the only answer to the question "why" is "because it is", "because he is" or "because he does"
Naturalistic answers end up with "because it is"
Theistic answers end up with "because he is" or "because he does" (or other such variants)

Either naturalistic or theistic the end result is "just becuase...."

So to claim that theistic answers somehow answer the "why" is just wrong.
All they do is regress it a level or two.

The question of "why" is effectively unanswerable at root in any way that is satisfactory in terms of the intent that is implicitly being sought for in the OP.


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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 1761 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 51 of 59 (413433)
07-30-2007 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 5:12 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
You may not understand the concept of a religious perspective of a supreme being. The idea is that this being cannot be completely understood by humans because humans were not given the ability to understand Him. In fact, the only one who can truly understand the nature of the Supreme Being is He Himself. Therefore, one cannot question the nature of the Being or the intent behind the decision. In a religious perspective the Supreme Being has given us a limited logical framework along with the world. Asking what causes this being to make decisions would be the equivalent of asking what causes the being to continue to exist.

Then why even bother asking the question?

And how can you say that we cannot know a Suprene Being's intent and then go on to say this:

My answer would be along the lines of reward for those who listen to his words. The reason for this world was not for us to serve; rather, the purpose of this world is for us to have a reward. Everyone religious would believe that there is a reward for following the rules. If our sole purpose was to worship than why would there need to be any reward? Furthermore if the sole purpose of the world were for the Creator to be worshiped, why would any blasphemy be tolerated at all? The sinners should be destroyed the instant they sin. In my framework, the purpose of our existence on this world is to earn a reward that is set-aside for us on another world. The reason for creating the world is because it is the "nature" (so to speak) of the creator to want to give to others.
The whole purpose of this world was to create others to give to.

Bolding mine.

You claim to know the nature and intent of the Creator after just saying that Its nature and intent cannot be understood by us puny humans.

Refer to my signature for my thoughts on this.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 59 (413645)
07-31-2007 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Jaderis
07-30-2007 9:41 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
The responce to your statement is simple. The question of why the world was created is easily answered. In fact, the answer was given by the creator himself. The questions that have no answer understandable by humans are for example: Why does the Creator want to do kindness? How did the Creator come into existance? or What is the nature of this Creator's existance? The basic question "why?" can be answered. The perpetual "why?" will not be answered because we can not understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Jaderis, posted 07-30-2007 9:41 PM Jaderis has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 1761 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 53 of 59 (413855)
08-01-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Open MInd
07-31-2007 7:00 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
The responce to your statement is simple. The question of why the world was created is easily answered. In fact, the answer was given by the creator himself. The questions that have no answer understandable by humans are for example: Why does the Creator want to do kindness? How did the Creator come into existance? or What is the nature of this Creator's existance? The basic question "why?" can be answered. The perpetual "why?" will not be answered because we can not understand it.

Somehow I didn't see a response. If the answer was given by the Creator Himself then what is it?


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 59 (413859)
08-01-2007 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 5:48 PM


Re: Science is very credible.
The laws of physics demand that the universe forms.

Again I ask, who says? Who wrote these laws of physics?

Man wrote the laws of physics after realizing the patterns in phenomena.

Everytime we drop a ball, it falls to the ground and at the same rate. After many trials, we can write a law of physics that says that the ball will fall at rate X. If you then come in and ask, why does the ball fall? My answer would be that it is inevitable, the laws of physics demand that the ball must fall.

That's just the way things must happen and we have described those things as laws.

All this does not preclude god as the source of those patterns, as the writer of the laws. He's just an uneccessisary entity for studying the falling of balls so why even bring him into it, even if he is ultiamtely responsible for causeing them to fall.

science doesn't say the world came from absolute nothingness.

If it did not than what did it come from? Who made that?

Well, who made god if he made it? They're both nonsensical questions, right?

Well, not totally. Have you ever read about branes colliding? Maybe the universe came from that. But then, now you're just going to ask "well, where did the branes come from?" "and where did that come from?" ad nauseum

Claiming Goddidit doesn't really avoid the question...

I don't think your childish curiosity will ever be satisfied without suckling on the magic man in the sky. I preferred to grow up and face the facts (mostly).


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wisdom
Junior Member (Idle past 4277 days)
Posts: 8
From: London
Joined: 12-21-2007


Message 55 of 59 (442577)
12-21-2007 5:39 PM


Qur'an and Science
Did you guys know there is a lot of science in the Quran - which there is no way it could have been known in the 14th century, see the links below:

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8552135092079886288&q=quran...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_u5bkXHuJE

Did you guys know these miracles in the Quran have been confirmed by top scientists:

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

Did you guys know that there is not a single contradiction in quran against establibshed modern science, this is proven by a french scientist named Maurice Bucaille in his book "The Bible, Quran and Science: Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bible-Quran-Science-Scriptures-Knowledge/...

Did you guys know that the Quran gives us a falsefication test, that if you can find a single contradiction from it, this is enough to say that it is not from the lord of the worlds, because he cannot make a mistake?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Shorten display form of two URL's.


Replies to this message:
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EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 59 (442634)
12-22-2007 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by wisdom
12-21-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Qur'an and Science
wisdom writes:

Did you guys know that there is not a single contradiction in quran against establibshed modern science, this is proven by a french scientist named Maurice Bucaille in his book "The Bible, Quran and Science: Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge"

quran book of sura writes:

He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)

And He completed them seven heavens in two days
and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded... (41:12)

We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. (37:6)

Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)

This says that the moon is higher in the 'heavens' than the stars... Seems a might contradicted by science for starters. But this is entirely off topic here.

I can't see why this topic was even promoted as a science thread, science doesn't address the 'why' questions like this. Theology addresses them (poorly).

-x


"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact — which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6829
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 57 of 59 (442670)
12-22-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by wisdom
12-21-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Qur'an and Science
Did you guys know....

No, I didn't. Thanks.


It has become fashionable on the left and in Western Europe to compare the Bush administration to the Nazis. The comparison is not without some superficial merit. In both cases the government is run by a small gang of snickering, stupid thugs whose vision of paradise is full of explosions and beautifully designed prisons. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 59 (442717)
12-22-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by wisdom
12-21-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Qur'an and Science
wisdom

I have never seen such drivel masquerade itself and caper about as though it had some actual insight. This is without doubt the most intellectually barren attempt to fit a religious text into a dimly lit shadow of a vague guess in the sole attempt to flog an agenda of ignorance into the gullible minds of people with nearly non-existent critical skills.

Congratulations! That website was truly a rare gem of dumbing down that has not seen the light of day since the dark ages.
Not only wrong on all accounts but worse,not even wrong.

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."

Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2463 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 59 of 59 (442728)
12-22-2007 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by wisdom
12-21-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Qur'an and Science
quote:
Did you guys know there is a lot of science in the Quran

There is a lot of science in my superman comics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by wisdom, posted 12-21-2007 5:39 PM wisdom has not yet responded

  
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