Human Evolution (re: If evolved from apes, why still apes?)

Hi there. Ah, it's the ol' "why are there still monkeys?" thing again.If Iceland was colonized by Scandinavians, why are there still Scandinavians? The apes we have now are not, in fact, the apes you used to get in the good old days, they too have evolved since the time of our common ancestor.

I wish people wouldn't do that.Look, if apes are a clade, then our common ancestors with chimps was an ape.If, on the other hand, we're going to allow the term "apes" to be anacladic, then in common parlance we are not apes, and our common ancestor with chimps would so be clasified. 'Cos they look like, y'know, apes.Your definition of apes, in which we are, but our ancestors aren't, corresponds to no concept I've ever heard of, and combines the worst features of both definitions.Be nice.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Close, but no cigar.

You have not, in fact, heard that, because no-one has ever said that.Except possibly the voices in your head. No, but environments do. This is a fact. They do not, which is why you can't quote them as doing so.---Why don't you try arguing with some opinion that someone actually holds? Or is that too difficult for you?

"The" creation theory?

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“Glooskap came first of all into this country, into Nova Scotia, Maine, Canada, into the land of the Wabanaki, next to sunrise. There were no Indians here then (only wild Indians very far to the west). First born were the Mikumwess, the Oonahgemessuk, the small Elves, little men, dwellers in rocks. And in this way he made Man: He took his bow and arrows and shot at trees, the basket-trees, the Ash. Then Indians came out of the bark of the Ash-trees...

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Glooskap made all the animals. He made them at first very large. Then he said to Moose, the great Moose who was as tall as Ketawkqu's, "What would you do should you see an Indian coming?" Moose replied, "I would tear down the trees on him." Then Glooskap saw that the Moose was too strong, and made him smaller, so that Indians could kill him.

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Then he said to the Squirrel, who was of the size of a Wolf, What would you do if you should meet an Indian? And the Squirrel answered, "I would scratch down trees on him." Then Glooskap said, "You also are too strong," and he made him little.

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Then he asked the great White Bear what he would do if he met an Indian; and the Bear said, "Eat him." And the Master bade him go and live among rocks and ice, where he would see no Indians. So he questioned all the beasts, changing their size or allotting their lives according to their answers.”

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At the time that turned the heat of the earth, / At the time when the heavens turned and changed, / At the time when the light of the sun was subdued / To cause light to break forth, / At the time of the night of Makalii [winter] / Then began the slime which established the earth, / The source of deepest darkness. / Of the depth of darkness, of the depth of darkness, / Of the darkness of the sun, in the depth of night, / It is night, / So was night born.

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Kumulipo was born in the night, a male. / Poele was born in the night, a female. / A coral insect was born, from which was born perforated coral. / The earth worm was born, which gathered earth into mounds, / From it were born worms full of holes. / The starfish was born, whose children were born starry.

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The earth is a great island floating in a sea of water, and suspended at each of the four cardinal points by a cord hanging down from the sky vault, which is of solid rock. When the world grows old and worn out, the people will die and the cords will break and let the earth sink down into the ocean, and all will be water again. The Indians are afraid of this.

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When all was water, the animals were above in Gl'lt, beyond the arch; but it was very much crowded, and they were wanting more room. They wondered what was below the water, and at last Dyuni's, "Beaver's Grandchild," the little Water-beetle, offered to go and see if it could learn. It darted in every direction over the surface of the water, but could find no firm place to rest. Then it dived to the bottom and came up with some soft mud, which began to grow and spread on every side until it became the island which we call the earth. It was afterward fastened to the sky with four cords, but no one remembers who did this...

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When the animals and plants were first made -- we do not know by whom -- they were told to watch and keep awake for seven nights, just as young men now fast and keep awake when they pray to their medicine. They tried to do this, and nearly all were awake through the first night, but the next night several dropped off to sleep, and the third night others were asleep, and then others, until, on the seventh night, of all the animals only the owl, the panther, and one or two more were still awake. To these were given the power to see and to go about in the dark, and to make prey of the birds and animals which must sleep at night. Of the trees only the cedar, the pine, the spruce, the holly, and the laurel were awake to the end, and to them it was given to be always green and to be greatest for medicine, but to the others it was said: "Because you have not endured to the end you shall lose your hair every winter."

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Men came after the animals and plants. At first there were only a brother and sister until he struck her with a fish and told her to multiply, and so it was. In seven days a child was born to her, and thereafter every seven days another, and they increased very fast until there was danger that the world could not keep them. Then it was made that a woman should have only one child in a year, and it has been so ever since.

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Of old, Heaven and Earth were not yet separated, and the In and Yo not yet divided. They formed a chaotic mass like an egg which was of obscurely defined limits and contained germs. The purer and clearer part was thinly drawn out, and formed Heaven, while the heavier and grosser element settled down and became Earth. The finer element easily became a united body, but the consolidation of the heavy and gross element was accomplished with difficulty. Heaven was therefore formed first, and Earth was established subsequently. Thereafter divine beings were produced between them.

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Hence it is said that when the world began to be created, the soil of which lands were composed floated about in a manner which might be compared to the floating of a fish sporting on the surface of the water.

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At this time a certain thing was produced between Heaven and Earth. It was in form like a reed-shoot. Now this became transformed into a God, and was called Kuni-toko-tachi no Mikoto. Next there was Kuni no sa-tsuchi no Mikoto, and next Toyo-kumu-nu no Mikoto, in all three deities. These were pure males spontaneously developed by the operation of the principle of Heaven.

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The Raven and his wife created the world. They made the cape of Ui’sak out of a nose of an eider-duck [Somatheria spectabilis]; the peninsula of Alaska, of a long belt-knife; and the island Ima’lik [one of the Diomedes], of a button of the scabbard [with which it is clasped around the hip]. They made reindeer of their hair, and dogs of their nails, and sea-water of their urine.

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You could make the same claim about any sufficiently recent concept.Should we give up on the theory that lightning is an electrical discharge, and go back to the "thunder god is angry" hypothesis?How about the germ theory of disease? Witchcraft has historically been the more popular explanation.Splitting the atom? Why, the very name means "unsplittable", and has done for 2500 years.The Periodic Table hasn't been around nearly as long as the "four elements" of earth, air, fire, and water. (Image courtesy of the Rediscovery Institute.)Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

So where do the australopithecines fit into all this?A. africanus, cranial capacity 400 - 500 cm³ H. habilis, cranial capacity (this specimen) 510 cm³ H. sapiens, average cranial capacity about 1500 cm³ It would seem perverse to allow a relationship between H. habilis and H. sapiens but to deny the possibility of a relationship between the australopithecines and H. habilis.Humans and apes, you say, are "so diverse" --- yet the difference between australopithecines, outside genus Homo, and H. habilis, inside genus Homo, seem markedly less than the differences that we can find within genus Homo.

Yeah, that can happen. Well, would it have included rhipidistian fish?Where, given the multitude of intermediate forms, would you like to draw the line, and declare --- here the possibility of ancestry stops?You will always face the same problem --- that of those species that you wish to include, there will always be one species outside that group that is more similar to one of the species inside that group than the species inside that group are to one another. To speak for myself --- feel free to waste my time. We shall find out if it is a waste of yours. Then perhaps you had better answer my question. Or perhaps there is some other reason why people familiar with the fossil record don't immediately fall at your feet declaring that of course you are absolutely right.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

That could have been both more accurate and more coherent.

I believe I explained this at length here.It's as though you said: "One scientist tells me that the weight of an elephant is 4.5, and another tells me that it's 9000. Who should I trust?"You left off the units. One scientist is using tons, and the other is using pounds, and they are in agreement. The fact that biology makes no sense to you is more a commentary on your present level of understanding than it is on biology.It all makes perfect sense to me.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.