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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 136 of 262 (443442)
12-25-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jaywill
12-24-2007 10:45 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
To my question of who it was that Jesus was indicating would pull down the stones of the temple buildings PaulK writes:
This has nothing to do with Jesus. The temple detruction was predicted by Solomon 2900 years ago - the reason he safe guarded the Arc, which was not founded, nor seen in the 2nd temple period, and why the Romans could not locate this most prized of all possessions. We find that Jewish prophets also predicted this, namely charging to the king of Israel that Babylon would raze the temple, and Jews would become exiled in a strange land they never knew. Precedent stands.
There can be no question this Gospel depiction of not one brick standing was made retrospectively. There is no contemporary report of it upto 4 centuries after the temple fell, and one should not impose this false claim upon Jesus but Europe: in any case, it is false - there are 1000s of bricks still standing here. There are no vindicated prophesis in the NT or Quran, and none have nominated one. Ironic, but the denial goes on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2007 10:45 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-25-2007 4:07 AM IamJoseph has not replied
 Message 138 by jaywill, posted 12-25-2007 11:52 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 137 of 262 (443453)
12-25-2007 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by IamJoseph
12-25-2007 12:17 AM


The gospel is indeed thought to have been penned after the fall of Jerusalem. It's also not necessarily a prophecy to look at any grand building and say that one day it will be reduced to rubble. All structures come to this eventually.
As far as 'wanting to' doubt: it's not a matter of what one wants, but of what one finds convincing.
How convincing is the following message to our fundies?
One day this forum will no longer be on the web.
In that day you will know Odin is the true god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by IamJoseph, posted 12-25-2007 12:17 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 138 of 262 (443498)
12-25-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by IamJoseph
12-25-2007 12:17 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
There can be no question this Gospel depiction of not one brick standing was made retrospectively. There is no contemporary report of it upto 4 centuries after the temple fell, and one should not impose this false claim upon Jesus but Europe: in any case, it is false - there are 1000s of bricks still standing here. There are no vindicated prophesis in the NT or Quran, and none have nominated one. Ironic, but the denial goes on.
The specific prophesy of Jesus in chapter 24 is that of the stones that the disciples with Him could "see," there would not be one left standing. I deem it possible therefore, that portions of the temple which at that moment they were not able to "see," some may have been left standing. That is one possible explanation.
The words concerning Jerusalem's destruction occured within 40 years of the speaking of Jesus. This destruction occured in 70 A.D. And Josephus the Jewish historian wrote that the site looked like it had never been inhabited.
This is a portion of some of the information I am seeing:
"Jewish Wars, in revolt against Rome, began in A.D. 66. Titus with his Roman Army arrived before the walls of Jerusalem on the day of Passover, A.D. 70. Banks and earthwork were built, battering rams were placed, and the seige began.
The Roman Army numbered 30,000; the Jewish Army, 24,000. The city was crowded with 600,000 visitors, according to Tacitus. After 5 months the walls were battered down, the Temple burned, and the city left ruined and desolate, except for Herod's three great towers at the northwest corner, which were left standing as a memorial of the massive strength of the fortification which Titus had demolished.
The Roman Army moved down to Caesarea. Over 1,000,000 Jews were killed. 95,000 captives were taken, among them Josephus. Eusebius says that Christians, on the appearance of the Roman Army, through Porphetic warning, fled to Pella.
For the 50 years following, Jerusalem disappeared from history. In A.D. 135, Barcocheba, a pretended Messiah, led a revolt, got possession of the city, and attempted to rebuild the Temple. The revolt was suppressed by the Roman Army. 580,000 Jews were killed, and Judah was desolated. Jews were forbidden to reenter Jerusalem, on pain of death. A temple of Jupitar was erected where the Temple of God had stood."
This From Halley's Bible Handbook published by Zondervan.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by IamJoseph, posted 12-25-2007 12:17 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by IamJoseph, posted 12-26-2007 10:36 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 140 by IamJoseph, posted 12-26-2007 10:53 PM jaywill has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 139 of 262 (443831)
12-26-2007 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jaywill
12-25-2007 11:52 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
The specific prophesy of Jesus in chapter 24 is that of the stones that the disciples with Him could "see," there would not be one left standing. I deem it possible therefore, that portions of the temple which at that moment they were not able to "see," some may have been left standing. That is one possible explanation.
My point was this was predicted by Solomon a 1000 years before, and was vindicated by Babylon. Numerous other OT prophets also prophesized this. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus or the NT. Nor does the reason behind Rome's destruction have anything to do with christianity, but Judaism: the Jews refused to bow to Ceasar's statue because this law is in the OT, not the NT, and was observed for 2000 years before christianity's emergence. The pre-islamic arabs and the later new christians - had no problem bowing to Rome's diety - the reason they survived. Period.
It does not help the NT when such ommisive and distortive semantics are employed. Nor does this cast a good image of the OT: the Jesus would lust after the genocide of his own kin. IMHO, this is just European twistings, and alligns with its bias against the Jews. But it will be difficult to get acknowledgement of this: after all, 1.1 Million Jews sacrificed their lives and their country for their faith - it does not get greater - and this fact is not even mentioned!
This event of 70 CE is one of history's greatest: no people defended their faith in a more majestic way. The defense with Rome marks the greatest sacrifice by a people in all recorded history, making the NT omission unpardonable and points only to guilt and false reportings. Certainly, it is no prophesy by its precedence of Jewish writings and Babylon doing the same and for the same reason. The church, when it begat power, went on to bar Jews from returning for 2000 years: it should have done the reverse!
'WHEN FREEDOM OF BELIEF - BECAME ROME'S GREATEST WAR'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jaywill, posted 12-25-2007 11:52 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2007 11:22 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 140 of 262 (443832)
12-26-2007 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jaywill
12-25-2007 11:52 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
For the 50 years following, Jerusalem disappeared from history.
Judaism did not dissapear from history; it prevailed a terrible history as no other did. Christianity and Islam were tested here - and they failed - even as they saught to allign their core belief on villification. Judaism triumphed, evidencing the greatest prophesy in geo-history. But I understand there is an inculcated reason to deface truth and history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jaywill, posted 12-25-2007 11:52 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2007 7:34 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 141 of 262 (443835)
12-26-2007 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by IamJoseph
12-26-2007 10:36 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
My point was this was predicted by Solomon a 1000 years before, and was vindicated by Babylon. Numerous other OT prophets also prophesized this. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus or the NT. Nor does the reason behind Rome's destruction have anything to do with christianity, but Judaism: the Jews refused to bow to Ceasar's statue because this law is in the OT, not the NT, and was observed for 2000 years before christianity's emergence. The pre-islamic arabs and the later new christians - had no problem bowing to Rome's diety - the reason they survived. Period.
Before I respond please point out to me specifically what Solomon said which forms the basis of your opinion.
You know that the temple was destroyed more than once, I am sure. Anyway, show me the specific utterance of Solomon that you are refering to.
It does not help the NT when such ommisive and distortive semantics are employed. Nor does this cast a good image of the OT: the Jesus would lust after the genocide of his own kin.
I see no such "lusting" of the Son of God for genocide. I see this no more than a lusting on the part of Jeremiah, or Ezekiel, or Isaiah or any other of the minor prophets.
In fact it says twice in the New Testament that Jesus wept. A stronge word for weeping is used in Luke 19:41 - "And as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, Saying, If only you knew in this day, even you, the things that are for your peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes."
This is a stronge Greek word showing Jesus crying over the coming judgment of Jerusalem. I see no lusting after the punishment of His countrymen.
And the Apostle Paul wrote that he was willing to be "accursed" and cut off from Christ for the sake of his Jewish brethren (Romans 9:3)
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were a curse, [separated] from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, whose are the sonship and the glory and the covenant and the giving of the law and the service and the promises; whose are the fathers, and out of whom, as regards what is according to flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9:1-5)
The writer of 13 or so of the New Testament books desired to be cut off from Christ as a curse for the sake of his Jewish brethren. There is no lusting for thier punishment here.
IMHO, this is just European twistings, and alligns with its bias against the Jews.
There is no denying that there is anti-Jewishness in the history of the Christian church. But let's go back to the New Testament to see the attitude of Christ and the apostles.
But it will be difficult to get acknowledgement of this: after all, 1.1 Million Jews sacrificed their lives and their country for their faith - it does not get greater - and this fact is not even mentioned!
I would be a fool to try to deny that what I would call "Christiandom" has had terrible times of persecuting Jews. How many of those were really Christians will be sorted out at the judgment seat of Christ. And those Christians who did so should remember Peter's warning that "judgement begins at the house of God".
No one is getting away with anything. No Christians gets away with remaining the same kind of person forever. No Christian gets away with saving his soul life or retaining his fallen nature out of which such prejudice would come.
This event of 70 CE is one of history's greatest: no people defended their faith in a more majestic way. The defense with Rome marks the greatest sacrifice by a people in all recorded history, making the NT omission unpardonable and points only to guilt and false reportings.
I don't know about that. There were also lots of sacrifical acts and heroism on the part of first century disciples of Jesus which were not reported in the New Testament either.
Certainly, it is no prophesy by its precedence of Jewish writings and Babylon doing the same and for the same reason. The church, when it begat power, went on to bar Jews from returning for 2000 years: it should have done the reverse!
In another discussion we can talk about the New Testament's prophesies concerning the degradation of the Christian church, her predicted apostasy, and her recovery.
In Revelation chapters two and three Jesus has some very heavy words concerning His own church.
For example:
Left their first love,
Dead,
Dwelling where Satan's throne is,
Lukewarm,
Spiritually Naked and Blind, and in need of eyesalve,
Married to the world instead of married to Christ,
Having the deep teachings of Satan,
In every instance He calls for those who have an ear to "overcome" the surrounding degradation.
And of course the vision of the Harlot, Babylon the Great in the book of Revelation is related to the apostate historic Christianity.
The Bible is pretty balanced in exposing religious hypocrisy where ever it needs to be exposed. But God always also has a way that his people can overcome and rescued from degradation.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by IamJoseph, posted 12-26-2007 10:36 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by IamJoseph, posted 12-27-2007 10:29 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 142 of 262 (443866)
12-27-2007 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by IamJoseph
12-26-2007 10:53 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
But I understand there is an inculcated reason to deface truth and history.
I consider myself a friend of Israel. You probably have a point that for me to quote someone that for the next 50 years Jeusalem disappeared from history is not true. I'll give you that point. I really don't know that that is true. I do not know that much about the history of Jerusalem from the 2nd century onward.
God knows how often in our prayer meetings we pray for Israel and her prosperity.
But this does not change the fact that many of us are convinced that she missed the arrival of the Messiah in Jesus of Nazareth. But her misstep has become our salvation under God's sovereignty.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by IamJoseph, posted 12-26-2007 10:53 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by IamJoseph, posted 12-27-2007 10:07 PM jaywill has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 143 of 262 (444035)
12-27-2007 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jaywill
12-27-2007 7:34 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
I consider myself a friend of Israel.
I am certain your intention is good, but no one who accepts a deathly 3-state in what is left of palestine, calling it a 2-state, or the name Palestinian applying to Muslim Arabs, can claim to be a friend of israel. All nations become tested with and by Israel: including European Christianity and Islam, and all its peoples - including those who claim now to be secular.
In fact, even the creation of Jordan is a great evil, and a mark of doublespeak by Briton. Also, the Sinai and Golan must be deemed Part of Israel: this is because there was a multi-state arab attack on a UN established state, with no UN Resolution being issued of what is the UN's worst violation on record, and because the war rules say an attacking country does not get back land it lost in such a war. This caused continueing arab attacks with open displays of genocide upon the Jews and Israel, and now all over the world. The NY has opened with the murder of Bhutto and 20 others - there are no Zionists here, but it marks the legasy of briton, who perpertrated the same evil for India as with Palestine. The world is in chaos today not because of the climate pollution but these:
'VE VILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JESUS' - The Pope.
'IT WILL BE AN HISTORIC COMPROMISE FOR PEACE TO GRANT TWO STATES IN PALESTINE - ONE FOR THE JEWS AND ONE FOR THE ARABS' - Churchill.
Therein is your world pollution. And there is no options other than confronting and correcting these. Only such can claim to be friends of Israel. Its hard no - and it will only get harder? More OPEN bible prophesies:
'AND I SHALL PROVE ALL YOUR ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AS FALSE'
'AND I SHALL MAKE JERUSALEM AS A BURDEN UNTO THE NATIONS'
'THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE - OR CALL YOU TO ACCOUNT TOO'
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2007 7:34 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by reiverix, posted 12-28-2007 1:13 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 144 of 262 (444038)
12-27-2007 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
12-26-2007 11:22 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
Before I respond please point out to me specifically what Solomon said which forms the basis of your opinion.
I don't think there is a text saying this - but it does not negate the factor. It is claimed by sages well before Chrstianity emerged, and repeated by numerous prophets. You cannot in a pink fit allocated this to the gospels.
quote:
You know that the temple was destroyed more than once, I am sure. Anyway, show me the specific utterance of Solomon that you are refering to.
I rest the case. Nothing to do with the gospels or Jesus. The destruction by the Romans marks only a triumph of Israel over Europe - which has repeated itself for 2000 years, then made manifest by Israel's return. Denial is not truth.
quote:
It does not help the NT when such ommisive and distortive semantics are employed. Nor does this cast a good image of the OT: the Jesus would lust after the genocide of his own kin.
I see no such "lusting" of the Son of God for genocide. I see this no more than a lusting on the part of Jeremiah, or Ezekiel, or Isaiah or any other of the minor prophets.
No, these are not the same. While jeremiah castigated the jews for not observing the laws, the Gospels castigate the jews for following their laws. Its a huge dif.
quote:
This is a stronge Greek word showing Jesus crying over the coming judgment of Jerusalem. I see no lusting after the punishment of His countrymen.
And the Apostle Paul wrote that he was willing to be "accursed" and cut off from Christ for the sake of his Jewish brethren (Romans 9:3)
Never mind about Paul. Show me where the vatican and European christianity acknowledged which is the jewish homeland it stole? I see the exact reverse occuring. I follow the pursuit of truth - and this means either Judaism is wrong - or both christianity and islam are wrong. There is no compromise here.
quote:
I would be a fool to try to deny that what I would call "Christiandom" has had terrible times of persecuting Jews. How many of those were really Christians will be sorted out at the judgment seat of Christ. And those Christians who did so should remember Peter's warning that "judgement begins at the house of God".
No one is getting away with anything. No Christians gets away with remaining the same kind of person forever. No Christian gets away with saving his soul life or retaining his fallen nature out of which such prejudice would come.
You should'nt get me wrong: my position saves christianity - yours will not. When Spain perpertrated its evils upon Jews, America was discovered - by Jews - and this remains the only salvation for christianity - saving this great religion from medevial Europe. I see that the Jews forgave christian europe for the worst crimes of humanity, even reconsiling with germany in record time.
But I don't see the negation of those european christian attrocities today - these are now being perpertrated by deciet and PC at the UN, via horrific historical revisionism, doublespeak of genocidal 3-states dished out as 2-states for peace, Palestians annointed by Europe on jews but now being applied to those who hated this name as they do zionism today - and 100s of other falsehoods.
Christianity is hardly going to be free without confronting its falsehoods. Chanting IN JC or Paulism is not the answer here. Instead, I support this:
'A FALSEHOOD AND THE HOLY ONE CANNOT ABIDE TOGETHER'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2007 11:22 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 12-28-2007 8:48 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 145 of 262 (444078)
12-28-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by IamJoseph
12-27-2007 10:29 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
I don't think there is a text saying this - but it does not negate the factor. It is claimed by sages well before Chrstianity emerged, and repeated by numerous prophets. You cannot in a pink fit allocated this to the gospels.
There is no "pink fit" here Joseph. I think the emotions are showing strong from your side though.
I know that in the Babylonian captivity the house of God was torn down. I know that in Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah there is the return of a remnant from captivity and the rebuilding of the city, and I beleive the temple. This was not the end of the history of the temple though.
These important developments do not nullify or render trivial that Jesus spoke of the destruction of the buildings of the temple in Matthew. I didn't place the text there at a whim. It is in the Greek New Testament.
Incidently, that is not the only thing Jesus prophesied about Israel as if He had only negative things to say. There is quite a bit He predicted which is glorious in nature. The fact that prophets of old spoke similiar things both negative and positive, does not nullify that the Messiah spoke such things.
I rest the case. Nothing to do with the gospels or Jesus. The destruction by the Romans marks only a triumph of Israel over Europe - which has repeated itself for 2000 years, then made manifest by Israel's return. Denial is not truth.
You can rest your case all you want. You cannot "rest away" the following:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall by no means see Me from now on until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. And He answered and said to them,
Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, There shall by no means be left here a stone upon a stone, which shall not be thrown down." (Matthew 23:37 - 24:2)
And on a pink whim of yours we are not going to say "Jesus never said that" or "this has nothing to do with the Gospel".
In fact verse 37 is of particular interest to us because it indicates that Jesus is that Jehovah God of the Old Testament come as a man:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (Matt. 23:37)
It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young [b](Isaiah 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Therefore when the Lord Jesus Christ said, "I desired to gather your children together, the wat a hen gathers her brood under her wings," He indicated that He was God Himself.
In verse 38 Jesus refers to "house" singular, not "houses". So the best interpretation is that this must denote the house of God which was the temple (Matt.21:12-13).
And Jesus entered into the temple and cast out all of those who were selling and buying in the temple. And He overturned the tavles of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling the doves.
And He said to them, It is written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer," but you are making it a den of robbers. (Matt.21:12,13)
The "house" mentioned in 23:38 must mean the temple. It had been the house of God, but now it was called "your house" because the Jews had made it a den of robbers (21:13)
Many of us believe that the fulfillment of the prediction of the desolated temple which Jesus refered to as "your house" occured when Titus and the ROman army destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
This does not mean that there were not heroic acts performed by Jews during that destruction or afterwards. The discipline of God upon Israel in the past did not mean that some ones like Daniel and his companions would not rise to be heroes of faith.
I think part of your reaction, Joseph, is emotionally motivated. Perhaps you are a Jew and you think all Christians want to do is make Jews look bad. I told you that I consider myself a friend of Israel. And I think Jesus cared more about that temple than you or I ever will.
Latter I will give samples of the Apostle Paul's warning to Gentile Christians not to be proud or highminded against the Jews.
No, these are not the same. While jeremiah castigated the jews for not observing the laws, the Gospels castigate the jews for following their laws. Its a huge dif.
I want to spend more time to consider how to address this objection. However, if Jesus was that much different from Jeremiah, in terms of convicting people, why did some of the people think that Jesus was Jeremiah:
Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of Man is?
And they said, Some, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. (Matt. 16:13,14)
When some of the Jews heard Jesus preaching they thought it was Jeremiah coming back to them and preaching again. Others thought is was Elijah and still others, John the Baptist.
This indicates that there was something in the messages of Jesus which reminded them mightily of the book of Jeremiah. Of course both Jeremiah and Jesus the Son of God were of God.
Never mind about Paul. Show me where the vatican and European christianity acknowledged which is the jewish homeland it stole? I see the exact reverse occuring. I follow the pursuit of truth - and this means either Judaism is wrong - or both christianity and islam are wrong. There is no compromise here.
Hold on here. Who said I was defending Europe or European Christianity or the Vatican? I have been discussing the New Testament and prophecy fulfillment.
Nothing I have written here is meant to excuse real instances of historic Christianity's begotry towards the Jews. I am studying here the Bible for the most part. Now Paul is part of the New Testament. So what Paul wrote is relevant to the subject.
Okay, I did refer to the writings of Josephus a little. But for the most part I am discussing the Bible's content. I am not here to justify the Vatican or European geo-political attitudes over the last 2,000 some years.
You should'nt get me wrong: my position saves christianity -
I am not interested in the "saving" of Christianity in the sense you probably suspect. I am interested in Jesus Christ as a living Person, resurrected, become the life giving Spirit and can be known today. He is the Messiah and He fulfilled many prophesies as well as spoke some which have or will be fulfilled.
Christianity is like Israel, she too degraded and became deformed towards God. Just as there was a Babylonian Captivity there was a "Babylonian Captivity" of the Christain church which took her far away from the reality of Christ for centries.
Both Israel and the Christian church have had their problems of apostasy. They are both vulnerable to the failings of human nature. Basically man is simply not for God. This is man's biggest problem. Man is not for God. Man is always for something else besides God and His pure will.
At the same time, both with the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saint God preserves for Himself a remnant who will overcome the surrounding degradation. This is really another full subject for discussion.
When Spain perpertrated its evils upon Jews, America was discovered - by Jews - and this remains the only salvation for christianity - saving this great religion from medevial Europe. I see that the Jews forgave christian europe for the worst crimes of humanity, even reconsiling with germany in record time.
Okay. That is very interesting. And I do not say that there is no truth to that.
However, I'm just saying that Jesus prophesied about the destruction of the house of God, the temple in Jerusalem in the Gospel of Matthew. I believe that His prophesy came true. That is all I am really concerned with here.
But I don't see the negation of those european christian attrocities today - these are now being perpertrated by deciet and PC at the UN, via horrific historical revisionism, doublespeak of genocidal 3-states dished out as 2-states for peace, Palestians annointed by Europe on jews but now being applied to those who hated this name as they do zionism today - and 100s of other falsehoods.
I have no comment about this Joseph.
Christianity is hardly going to be free without confronting its falsehoods. Chanting IN JC or Paulism is not the answer here. Instead, I support this:
I agree that wayward religionists are not getting away with anything. It is to Christ Himself that all Christians must give an account to one day.
When I write or talk to people my Gospel warns me that I will one day have to give an account for every careless word that I uttered.
I expect to stand before Christ and be asked to give an account of my behavior as a Christian.
For Jesus taught us the disciples:
And I say to you that every idle word which men shall speak, they will render an account concerning it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. (Matt. 12:36,37)
Speaking to Christian disciples, the Apostle Paul wrote:
For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad. (2 Cor.5:10)
So then each one of us will give an account concerning himself to God. (Romans 14:12)
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God ... (Rom. 14:10)
And the Apostle Peter also warns us that God begins His examination with those who should know better first.
But if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this name.
For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God; and if first from us, what will be the end of those who disobey the gospel of God ?"
(1 Peter 4:16,17)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by IamJoseph, posted 12-27-2007 10:29 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by IamJoseph, posted 12-28-2007 9:44 AM jaywill has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 146 of 262 (444091)
12-28-2007 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by jaywill
12-28-2007 8:48 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
These important developments do not nullify or render trivial that Jesus spoke of the destruction of the buildings of the temple in Matthew. I didn't place the text there at a whim. It is in the Greek New Testament.
There can be no greater insult rendered to the name of Jesus than to allign him with the temple destruction or the exile of the Jews. I shake my head at christians lusting over Jesus' crifiction, adorned with beedy eyed, long nosed jews sniggering and mocking, as per Mad Mel's passion. Show me another example of Jews perpertrating such an evil? This event of confronting Rome was, in total contradiction of the NT, mankind's greatest display of faith and sacrifice, and it is also the most unpardonable omission in the gospels. How ridiculus it is to lessen the awesome act displaced by the jews against Rome - while speaking about self sacrifice! And millions of otherwise sincere christians cannot see this - because they have been wrongly inculcated and hijacked. Lets face it - both the NT and Quran cannot be right, and both these contradict the OT: this chaos haunts humanity today.
Mathew is a no go - it contains the most anti-jewish writings imaginable, resembling later Europe's mein kampf and Luther writings: why be so selective and omissive? Its not about my emotions, but the loss of credible truth given to history. Please show me where mathhew speaks of the sacrifices made by the Jews at this time - is the Josephus Documents thought you in history class of christian nations, and why not - it is far more credible than any other historical document, written as it happened, leaving no justtifiable excuse. The gospel was written by Europeans, and is a replica of what the hellenists said 200 years before. It is not written by jews, and has no evidence of its history - when it aught to have: writings were commonplace in Judea 2000 years ago.
quote:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
Jews cherish all their prophets, and they have more than anyone else. Even their greatest King, David, bowed to Nathan the prophet. The charge of deicide is perhaps the greatest lie in all recorded history, and responsible for the deaths of 100s of 1000s of innocent souls throughout Europe's history. As if Rome would harken to jews - when history shows it crucified 100s of 1000s of jews, upto 800 per day, their families beheaded before their eyes. Does Mathew mention it - and why not? Too busy with JC I suppose? Do you not find it obscene that one Jew is cried for, while 1.1 million are disregarded? A lie by omission = a lie. Period.
The problem is, this lie has been attached to the core belief of christians in the NT: so its rejection is akin to christians rejecting their most core belief. What a mess! But this is true of every utterence from Europe: not a single of her charges were ever proven true, and everyone proven false, including the blood libels, the protocols, that Jews drink children's blood on passover, etc, etc, etc. There are no clean hands here - yet you posit them as credible sources, quoting it as if it had a drop of truth?
quote:
In fact verse 37 is of particular interest to us because it indicates that Jesus is that Jehovah God of the Old Testament come as a man:
Believe whatever you want, but don't incriminate others by your beliefs, because it is easily defended. My quest is not againt your belief, which I know is sincere. But you cannot impose absolute distruths against others in the name of your belief. Jews never killed your savior [sic]; those who told you this, massacred over a million other Jews [truth]. Slot it in - historical truth transcends belief. Stop using European names to describe jews - a bible cannot attach itself to distruths in any manner. I find all the 1000s of names in the OT as authentic to their spacetime. What's the NT's phobia here? Why is the NT in Latin instead of the anguage of Jesus - which is not aramaic [mad mel!] but hebrew. Why have you changed the Passover service to the last supper? Did God ask you to do that? These are not traditional effectations, but purposeful designs to Europeanise the OT, and to decry everthing which is Jewish, even to exterminate their history and existence. It failed. Assoctaing Jesus with the NT is NOT a good thing. One can say, Jesus has rejected Europe and harkened to the God of Israel - manifestly so.
quote:
When some of the Jews heard Jesus preaching they thought it was Jeremiah coming back to them and preaching again. Others thought is was Elijah and still others, John the Baptist.
No sir, not true. jews know Jeremia better than christians, and what they must anticipate for a Messiah. Quoting Isaiah selectively and distortively is not credible. There were five candidates nominated as potential saviors against Rome - this never included Jesus, and all the candidates nominated were wrong, which they admitted. The criteria for a savior is well documented in prophetic writings, but christians want to select a verse which they can twist and allign with their own end premise, which is upside down, and ignore everything else in the book. It does not work that way: Isaiah never said the messiah will rise again - he said this for the rightious people already dead, which never happened. Hello?
You cannot quote NT or Quran to explain the OT. Christianity is savable today only how America turns. Savable from Europe. America was found by Jews - when European Spain did what Europe always did. As one was driven out - another refuge was already in process. Columbous did not get lost! The NT does not transcend the OT - its the other way around. Any contradictions must allign with the OT; anything said in the NT which is not accepted by Jews is simply wrong. All that has happened, is that the church attached belief in God with antisemtitism. You guys have a problem, and I do harken to it in a form of sympathy. Because I know your belief is wrong - but sincere.
How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
Behold, your house iis left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall by no means see Me from now on until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. And He answered and said to them,
Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, There shall by no means be left here a stone upon a stone, which shall not be thrown down." (Matthew 23:337 - 24:2)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 12-28-2007 8:48 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by jaywill, posted 12-28-2007 4:29 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
reiverix
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 80
From: Central Ohio
Joined: 10-18-2007


Message 147 of 262 (444140)
12-28-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by IamJoseph
12-27-2007 10:07 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
'VE VILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JESUS' - The Pope.
I am beyond stunned that you have used this fake quote again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by IamJoseph, posted 12-27-2007 10:07 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by IamJoseph, posted 12-29-2007 1:19 AM reiverix has not replied
 Message 151 by IamJoseph, posted 12-29-2007 4:30 AM reiverix has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 148 of 262 (444222)
12-28-2007 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by IamJoseph
12-28-2007 9:44 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
There can be no greater insult rendered to the name of Jesus than to allign him with the temple destruction or the exile of the Jews.
I showed you that Jesus wepted over His prediction of the misfotune of Jerusalem. It doesn't say He gloated. It says that He wept.
Why did Jesus weep if He was lusting after Israel's chastizement?
Have you read the book of Zechariah ? It is very interesting. There God says that He is angry with the nations that he brought against Israel. It says that He was only a little angry with His people and the nations furthered the disaster.
Now this is a repeated theme in the Old Testament. God has His way to discipline. That does not justify the excesses of the nations He used to discipline Israel. Look at the book of Amos.
That is why your king David said "Let me fall into the hands of God because He is merciful. But don't let me fall into the hands of man."
More than one place ( and I will have to look them up to be specific), God says in essence ( My discipline over Israel or another nation did not justify the excesses of the punishing nation. And now He will take those nations aside and punish them.
But the specific passages I would have to find. Do you recall such passages ?
Am I Anti-Jew because I believe that the Babylonian Captivity was God's answer to Israel and Judah's apostacy?
Am I Anti-Semetic because I believe that Yahweh kept the Hebrews 40 extra years in the desert where the first generation of Exodus members died in the wilderness, and only Joshua and Caleb and the younger generation came into the Good Land? If I believe that does that mean I gloat over the misfortune of the Jews and am Anti-Semetic?
I shake my head at christians lusting over Jesus' crifiction, adorned with beedy eyed, long nosed jews sniggering and mocking, as per Mad Mel's passion. Show me another example of Jews perpertrating such an evil? This event of confronting Rome was, in total
Oh come on Joseph. We're not in a discussion Mel Gibson's movie here !
I have to discontinue for a while. Further response will have to wait until latter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by IamJoseph, posted 12-28-2007 9:44 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by IamJoseph, posted 12-29-2007 1:26 AM jaywill has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 149 of 262 (444356)
12-29-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by reiverix
12-28-2007 1:13 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
WHAT?! There was never any doubt of its authenticity. I never used the term W.W.11 here - but its accuracy should not be in doubt after I posted proof of it. You should be better stunned of any denial of what is a blatancy here - your own!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by reiverix, posted 12-28-2007 1:13 PM reiverix has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 150 of 262 (444358)
12-29-2007 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by jaywill
12-28-2007 4:29 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
quote:
I showed you that Jesus wepted over His prediction of the misfotune of Jerusalem. It doesn't say He gloated. It says that He wept.
Save those croc NT tears: unless you would like to experience what the NT does to yourself and then claims to weep over it? Take it to the Pope and make him cry, then let him cease doctrining Israel's demise. This is hardly about Jesus - its about european christianity and its continueing genocidal doctrines against another people and nation. Christians must face truth and state which is the jewish homeland - its rejection is a pre-med genocide. Let the Pope show us how christians can survive without their land, capital and heritage. The rest is a false depiction of Gdliness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jaywill, posted 12-28-2007 4:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jaywill, posted 12-29-2007 9:10 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
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