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Author Topic:   The scientific method is based on a logical fallacy
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 25 of 70 (443507)
12-25-2007 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by sinequanon
12-25-2007 12:24 PM


Gravity in crisis?
(4) Stick with the theory despite the weight of contrary evidence.
For example, rather than abandon the law of gravity, claim dark matter exists. So instead of evidence driving the theory, the theory starts driving the evidence.
What "weight of contrary evidence" do you see in this example?
The law of gravity predicts a different rate of expansion of the universe from what is observed.
"Dark matter", on the other hand is very much about banking on "new" science.
And yet this theory is adequate for getting rockets and little cars to Mars. It would seem a little premature to abandon something that works just because we can't explain the dark stuff effects.
Rather the overwhelming evidence is that Newton's gravity is adequate for most computations, Einstein adds a few more, and the things that can't be covered by those are such that I would not call gravity a "theory in crisis" ...
What would it take to falsify the law of gravity?
A new theory that explains all the current evidence as well as the current theory AND explains the dark stuff effects, that can be tested and verified\validated and found to be a sound concept (that nasty scientific method again).
Simple. Got any contenders? Cause I'm interested.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by sinequanon, posted 12-25-2007 12:24 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by sinequanon, posted 12-25-2007 1:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 70 (443531)
12-25-2007 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by sinequanon
12-25-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Gravity in crisis?
Note, I merely added (4) to the list in Chiroptera's very well presented and illustrated post Message 10. I believe it needs to go in irrespective of how premature any choice is deemed to be.
But your addition of (4) is in contraindication of the scientific method, where invalidated theories are supposed to be discarded, revised or amended.
The example you give shows that this is the case with gravity, with the old theory being useful in limited cases, but superseded by the new one where necessary (I understand you can derive Newton's law within a special case of relativity, the special case that matches where we use it). Any new theory of gravity must also accomplish this trick, because we know that Newton's law does explain the motion of planetary objects at this scale, as will any new theory ... unless we are all deluded about gravity.
Hardly a good basis for falsification.
Yet we know that the motion of the moon and mars and the behavior of spaceships can be calculated according to Newton with sufficient accuracy to land little cars on both.
Any new law will explain gravity in a new way that will also explain this old evidence, because a new theory cannot be in contradiction of what has gone before.
How does that violate falsification? The application of Newton's law is (now) limited to where it can be used, and it is invalid outside that area.
Isn't this what creationists are accused of doing? Instead of addressing the flaws in their own argument they point out that other arguments are incompleteness or flawed.
No, creationists are just accused of being wrong and lying about it rather than dealing with the volumes of evidence that contradicts and invalidates their concepts.
That does not compare with areas where current theory/ies are incomplete or areas where there are anomalies with no (current) explanation within the theory/ies. Let me try this:
{A} is the evidence that is explained by Newton's "law" (a theory)
(B) is the evidence that is explained by Einstein's Relativity (a theory)
Everything in {A} is explained with sufficient accuracy by Newton's law, and everything in {B} is explained with sufficient accuracy by Einstein's Relativity, including everything in {A}. Newton's law is valid within {A} but it has been invalidated outside {A} and is not used there. A new law of gravity must also explain {A} and {B} in ways that Newton will still be valid in {A} and Einstein's Relativity will still be valid in {B} (although {A} and {B} may need to be redefined), and we will have a new bounded set {C} that is explained by the new theory that includes areas where both Newton and Einstein are invalid, and redefined to be limited to {A'} and {B'} respectively.
(4) on the other hand is what creationists and IDans do all the time. Accusing scientists of it is just an assertion that has yet to be substantiated.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by sinequanon, posted 12-25-2007 1:30 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by sinequanon, posted 12-25-2007 3:37 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 57 of 70 (443572)
12-25-2007 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by sinequanon
12-25-2007 3:37 PM


Re: Gravity in crisis?
I added (4) because I believe it actually happens in practice.
That you believe it has no bearing on whether it actually happens or not. So far you have not shown that it has. Your example of Newton's "law" of gravity doesn't work because it is now relegated to a set of evidence where it is close enough for all practical work, and it is considered invalid\falsified outside those bounds.
If a new theory comes along that explains dark stuff effects then the same will happen to Relativity.
Message 33
Let me try this:
{A} is the evidence that is explained by Newton's "law" (a theory)
(B) is the evidence that is explained by Einstein's Relativity (a theory)
Everything in {A} is explained with sufficient accuracy by Newton's law, and everything in {B} is explained with sufficient accuracy by Einstein's Relativity, including everything in {A}. Newton's law is valid within {A} but it has been invalidated outside {A} and is not used there. A new law of gravity must also explain {A} and {B} in ways that Newton will still be valid in {A} and Einstein's Relativity will still be valid in {B} (although {A} and {B} may need to be redefined), and we will have a new bounded set {C} that is explained by the new theory that includes areas where both Newton and Einstein are invalid, and redefined to be limited to {A'} and {B'} respectively.
That pretty well applies to all theories, where new information supersedes previous theory, but the theory is still valid for the old information.
OK, so each "law" has a domain of applicability.
Every theory has a "domain of applicability" and it is part of the definition of the theory (field, subfield, effect, etc)
Would you accept a spiritualist's argument that your laboratory lies outside the domain of applicability of their powers?
Only if I'm not studying the powers of spiritualists or anything supposedly affected by them.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by sinequanon, posted 12-25-2007 3:37 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
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