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Member (Idle past 5929 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is the bible the word of God or men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Don't you mean the jews - who converted to Islam! Was Jesus a Palestinian? Was Moses a Muslim - 'BY BELIEF' - even as the world knows you guys never followed the Mosaic for 2000 years after the law was given? Did Moses' belief tell you to bow to the Moon? Or did you learn this from Jews? Its the Arabs who converted to the OT - but first they wanted to replace all its names applying to Arabs - who never followed the OT 'BY BELIEF'. The truth is, Israel and Zion did not get destroyed - and you guys are aghast it exposes all your falsehoods. Now you must wipe off this Zionist Entity off the map. But it looks like your prophet has abandoned you and harkened to the God of the Zionists. It looks like Israel's survival is NOT in the hands of 57 Mullahs with fat thumbs robbing mother nature as their only claim to fame. The whole of Europe will abandon you when some Zionist nerd will come up with a new form of energy. What then - you cannot even grow dates anymore? There is not a single sentence of truth from you - not even one by accident. I find it an embarrassment debating with you. You have gotten away with such open falsehoods for two reasons only: European antisemitism - and Regimes one would not hire to clean their dog's H-hinnd. Is it a pride for you? You cannot survive while clinging to such falsehoods - no one can. Israel need not do a thing - your own errors will tale its toll: a use-by date applies for falsehoods. You denied King david, the real Philistines - a name of disgrace you now cling to, while blatantly telling this forum that Jews do not exist anymore : I posted evidence from prominent scholars it is the Muslim Pretend Pals which do not exist. You are prostrating to falsehoods - with impundence. 'HE WHO FASHIONED THE EYE - SHALL HE NOT SEE?'HE WHO IMPLANTED THE EAR - SHALL HE NOT SEE? - King David's Psalms, written 3300 years ago in Jerusalem.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: And those who fled from Arab muslim states when Israel was re-established, which the UN archives show is greater than the combined Arab refugees - are a fiction? Those Jews who fled from Europe - are also a fiction. Like the Jewish temple site - its your 3rd holy place - not the Jews' first holy site? Like 9/11 - a Zionist Plot, made to disgrace allah fearing Muslim terrorists? Do you even know what this dire prophesy of the OT means - is it a distortion, or proven by 4000 years of history and many a mighty nation now in the dustbin of history? Is this true or a Zionist Plot: 'AND I SHALL MAKE JERUSALEM AS A BURDEN UNTO THE NATIONS'
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Nimrod Member (Idle past 4937 days) Posts: 277 Joined: |
I have just about had it with IamJosephs continued accusations which falsely claim I want Jews's to be exterminated. And this is just a sliver of his endless false accusations (claiming I said Moses was a Muslim and that supporting Palestinian's rights as human beings somehow "steals Jewish heritage")
He wants to smear anybody who rejects his racial theology known as dispensationalism. Anybody Christian who even whispers a small bit toward defending individual Palestinian's humanity gets attacked and smeared with all sorts of character-smears (you are a "European" , "you are a Muslim", "you arent American" , "you arent a real Christian" ) Here are what Fundamentalists are finally saying about this disgusting theology and historical situation. Hank Hanegraff (the "Bible Anwser Man" who is a genuine scholar and has millions of listeners to his radio show) is a fundamentalist creationist and here is what his 2007 book covers (in part). Quotes will be taken from;Gary M.Burge's book Whose Land? Whose Promise? Hank Hanegraaff's book The Apocalypse Code
Burge Israeli historians now talk about the mass and planned expulsion of the Palestinians, an early form of 'ethnic cleansing'.The most troubling natiional confession has been the destruction of at least four hundred Palestinian villages, the ruin of dozens of Arab urban neighborhoods, and several massacres that would motivate the Arab population to flee.
Hanegraaff If America required people of African descent to carry special ID cards or to leave the country to make way for people of European ancestry, we would be conemned as a nation that promoted racism and apartheid.
Burge Any country that de facto excludes a segment of its society from national benefits on the basis of race can hardly qualify as democratic.
Burge In 1998, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel ccused the government of race-based discrimination and 'creating a threatening atmosphere that makes violation of human rights more acceptable'.
Hanegraaff Op Cit. xxiii - xxiv .... Real Estate Finally, at isse is an explosive debate over real estate.Eight years before Israel was formally founded in 1948, Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Land Fund, defined the debte over real estate when he declared that there was not enough room in Palestine for bth Jews and Arabs. "If the Arabs leave the country, it will be broad and wide open for us.If the Arabs stay, the country will remain narrow and miserable.The only solution is Israel without Arabs.There is no room for compromise on this point."32Israels first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion , was equally direct when he wrote, "We will expel Arabs and take their place".33 Thus, scarcely three years after the Nazi Holocaust ended in 1945, a Holy Land holocaust was initiated.Brother Andrew, best known for smuggling Bibles to Christians living behind the Iorn Curtain, recalls the well-known 1948 massacre of Deir Yassin in which an entire village of two hundred fifty men , women , children, and babies were brutally slaughtered by the Israeli paramiliary: "A few men were left alive and driven around to other villages to tell the story; then those mn were killed too.The result was a panic. That's why so many Palestinians fled.Entire villages were emptied, which is exactly what the Israelis wanted.They just took over those peoples homes."34 In whose Land? Whose Promise? Gary Burge names and faces for many victims and villages that were uprooted at gunpoint:
Burge Na'im Stifan Ateek was eleven years old in 1948.He and his family belonged to he Anglican Christian community in Beisan.Their home was a locus of Christian actvity:Bible studis , visiting missionaries, and Sunday school classes met there.His father even helped build an Anglican Church for Beisan.In the absence of a resident Anglican pastor (who came from Nazareth once a month for Holy Communion), Na'im's father served as the church's lay reader. On May 12, 1948(two days before the state of Israel was declared), Israeli soldiers occupied Beisan.There was no fighting, no resistance, no killing.The town was simply taken over.After searching the homes for weapons and radios, on May 26 they rounded up the leading men of the town to make an important announcment. Everyone would have to lave their homes in a few hours. "If you do not leave, we will have to kill you", they said. When the people had gathered in the center of town, the soldiers seperated the Muslims from the Christians.The Muslims were sent east to Jordan, ad the Christians were put on buses and deposited on the outskirts of Nazareth.Within a few hours, Na'im's mother, father, seven sisters, and two brothers were refugees.They had lost everything except the things they could carry.In Nazareth they joined some friends, and seventeen of them lived in two rooms near "Mary's Well". Na'im's father wet to work at once helping relief efforts for the countless Christians and Muslims flooding Nazareth daily s refugees. Ten years later, in 1958, the government permitted many of the Palestinian families to travel for one day without restriction.Na'ims father was eager to brng his children to Beisan so that they could see their "home".The Anglican Church had become a store-house.The Roman Catholic Church was a school.The Greek Orthadox church was in ruins.Na'im remembers the moment his father stepped up to the door of his home, the one he had built with his own hands.He wanted to see it one last time.But his request was refused.The new Israeli occupant said, "This is not your house.It is ours."
Hanegraaffop cit Burge goes on to recount the story of an Arab peasant making an inquiry of an official at the Israel Lands Administration.
[/qs]
Burge op cit "How do you deny my right to this land? It is my property. I inherted t from my parents and grandparents, and I have the deed of ownership".The official replied, "Ours is a more impressive deed; we have the deed fo the land from Dan {in the far north} to Elat {in the far south}".Another official was paying a peasant a token sale price for his land.Holding the peasant's property deed, the official remarked, "This is not your land; it is ours, and we are paying you 'watchman's wages', fo that is what you are.You have watched our land for two thousand years, and now we are paying your fee.But the land has always been ours."
Hanegraaff Former Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu put it plainly: "Our clam to the land is based on the greatest and most incontrovertable document in creation-the Holy Bible."
Hanegraaff goes on to quote Tim LaHaye describing the destruction of the Islamic Dome of the Rock as a "prophetic requirment of God's Word" plus many racial comments of LaHaye. (Hanegraaff said that Christians "hold the key to the problem of terrorism" which to me means that he is telling the God honest truth in that dispensationalist Christians cause these conflicts with their hateful and unbiblical views) Earlier Hanegraaff said
Hanegraaff op cit Such unbiblical notions put Christian Zionists in the untenable postion of condoning the displacement of Palestinian Chrisians from their homeland in order to facilitate a occupation based on unbelief and racial affiliation. The tragic consequence is that Palestinians today form the largest dislaced people in the world.
[/qs] Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given. Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Yes, all muslims speak of exterminating jews when they falsely claim jews converted to islam [sic], when all the world knows jews fastediously rejected islam, and that 1000s were massacred for this. Today, muslims exploit the traditional European antisemitism which corrupted history and sanctioned the name palestinians to Muslims: it is a placebo of genocide of Jews in their homeland, and no greater charade in the world today.
quote: Yes - get lost to a more sacred islamic place. Why was Jordan given you? There is no possibility these two peoples can live in the same soccer field, and the arab game is to export millions to overwhelm the Jews. This is a blatantly open charade. There is no such thing as muslim sufferin' pals: they are the last peoples on earth who should wear this name, and the Arabs calling themselves this have more options than any other displaced peoples in the world today. Those who pretend not to see the arab game are - "pretending". Genocide, trivialised by your lose evokings, is never a Jewish game - nor can a people with access to 57 countries claim this as their game. I note you cannot produce any coins, national anthems or palestinians coins; nor can you produce any links about jews being the ancesters of muslim Pretend Pals before 1960: I won't report you to Admin! I note also you have not mentioned Israel's rights here: who's promoting genocide - what do you call not mentioning Israel's rights - and that jews are your ancesters? Would you just love someone telling you this - and would you also love that they accuse you of genociding them instead? say Hi to Iran's president and all those muslim clerics who tell its peoples Moses was Muslim [sic] and 9/11 is a Zionist plot. Sell it to Europe.
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tesla Member (Idle past 1614 days) Posts: 1199 Joined: |
i beleive that the bible was inspired by God, yet written by man.
this means that God "untarnished", yet difficult to understand. was giving truth to man, "tarnished/faulty" and men just didnht quite understand all they saw or were told. and so basic truths were passed and recorded, and in refining, men added their law and proffessed it as Gods. ie: jesus made the remark, when being told he was not an observer of the law: that not one tith of the law did he overlook, yet he asked, what do you say about divorce? jesus claimed that the law of divorce was added because the people were selfish, and it was man mandated, and not God. yet the divorce law was interpreted by the pharasee's of that day as legal for many more reasons than jesus cited. this would show that the laws of man had found there way into text that was considered the laws passed by God. i beleive in the word of God and the bible as text inspired by the divine energy that was first, and that God holds a special purpose for mankind. yet under the evidence of this text alone, i cannot say for certain that all biblical text accepted today as the word of God, is the word of the devine being.
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2786 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
The notion that the Bible is inspired by God is based entirely on a couple of verses in the New Testament: the main one by Paul. (2 Timothy 3:16) ...
quote:... and another by Peter (2Pe 1:21). quote: Neither of the above can be applied to anything found in the New Testament, unless we are willing to accept Paul's own practice as exemplary of his meaning, for Paul utilized apocryphal and pagan sources to those purposes for which he recommended "god-inspired" writings. The Greek language of the text makes Paul's statement loose enough to include his own scribbles under the defintion of what might be "inspired by God." A more conservative interpretation holds that the object of Paul's discussion was the "holy scriptures" mentioned in the previous verse (verse 15). This interpretation would require that scriptures "inspired by God" be limited to hiera grammata - literally - "priestly writings." I am doubting that it was Paul's intent to so aggrandize the Jewish canon but I could be wrong. Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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Equinox Member (Idle past 5163 days) Posts: 329 From: Michigan Joined: |
Dr. Bill wrote:
I am doubting that it was Paul's intent to so aggrandize the Jewish canon but I could be wrong. Plus, that wasn't Paul. As you probably know, scholars have long ago concluded that 2 tm is a forgery by someone other than Paul. The same goes for the 2pt quote - 2Pt is well known not to be written by Peter, but rather by some second century Christian living long after Peter's death. -Equinox Edited by Equinox, : added Pt
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2786 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Thanks Equinox.
I was, as usual, working within the myth for the benefit of those who do not yet "believe." But thanks anyway for the heads up. Glad to know someone is reading my posts. More than that, I would be interested to know your thoughts on the issue. What do you think, or believe, or feel, on the issue of "inspiration?" Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: There is no human who claimed to have stood before the creator 'presence to presence' - which is varied from visions and inspiration in kind, as opposed by degree - and this document says Moses wrote the bible - by dictation, word for word, with the command not to add or subtract anything. This command has been flaunted some - but to no avail: the five books of Moses remain the world's most harkened writings in existence: Moses is the world's most believed and revered human - by period of time, concencus and by impact.
quote: I find such questions quite bizarre. Jesus was a Jew, by no means a christian or muslim, and the laws relating to divorce is already given: why would he ask this - as opposed reminding the people of the law? Contrastingly, the doctrine of purposeful celibacy is what goes against the Mosaic laws, contradicting numerous commands.
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tesla Member (Idle past 1614 days) Posts: 1199 Joined: |
jesus was pointing out that the pharisees were hipocrits, that they were not above sin, although they were prosecutors of the law.
thats why he made the comment. jesus not a christian: christians are beleivers in the doctrine of christ, so he wouldnt be a christian, but the christ.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: The pharisees were a million times better than Europeans, Rome to the EU. Better if JC confronted whom he did not. As I said, show me some tears for 1.1 Million Jews being massacred at the same spacetime. Obviously, there was no Moses figure here. Still the jews showed their stuff and sacrificed themselves like no NT figure could. The Pharisee deflection is a very stupid and false placebo, meant to justify the greatest crimes in humanity. The same applies to money changers performing the OT laws for 2000 years before the NT, as well as the horrific lie of disbelievers and deicide [sic]. The issue here is, christians and muslims are never wrong - because their scriptures say so. Well, they are wrong - their scriptures are wrong too. The Jews did nothing bad to Europe or the Arabs: its only and totally the other way around.
quote: Sure. But Jesus never followed the NT, nor did he call the passover as a last supper, nor did he speak aramaic or latin, and he was no christian or muslim. If you called on him, I bet he'd say: HUH! WHATS WITH THE LATIN BS!? This fact does not change because the NT says something else, and is obsessed with denial of Israel and Jews for 2000 years - to no avail. You have malligned Jesus by inferring he prophesized israel's destruction: mainly because this was a falsehood, thereby denying any spiritual mandate for him. The truth is, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus - he never made all those falsehoods nor did he invent the false term Palestinians [read, negation of Israel for peace], the division of jerusalem, the robeery of the temple loot now in the vatican's basement collecting dust, the blood libels, the protocols, etc, etc. These are from those who perpertrated great crimes and falsehoods. How does one resolve this irresolvable mess? This answer can only come from the OT. Neither the NT or the Quran has a mandated law not to add or subtract. The OT does. So you are free to correct your wrongs. QED.
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tesla Member (Idle past 1614 days) Posts: 1199 Joined: |
my point is: OT, torah, NT, any of the text, was written by man. and copied andre-written. simply saying : oooh but THIS text is mandated that if you subtract or add ytoull go to hell, does not mean that nothing was added or subtracted.
take mormans for example. a reknown con man copied the bible and made a few changes and started another religeon. he obviosly was not concerned but his motivation was money. political motivations, also, would take a faithless man to faith books and modify them to his purpose for an ignorant public,and in those days, who could be the wiser? im only suggesting that there is no way to prove that nothing has been added or subtracted from ancient texts. in the case of subtraction, with the book of enoch being removed from the current christian bible, it would appear that subtraction can be proven in christian instance. keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is ~parmenides
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: It was written by ONE man. Where is your proof of re-writings? The factor of the law not to add or subtract, is that it is vindicated today, and not seen with any other scriptures: all the OT laws, w/o exception, are active today - and no other religion or philosiphy was able to give the world a single law not contained therein. This renders the OT unique.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
... all the OT laws, w/o exception, are active today - and no other religion or philosiphy was able to give the world a single law not contained therein. This renders the OT unique. IaJ, this is the second time you've made this false statement. Since it's off-topic for this thread, I'd like to direct you here. This statement is either woefully ignorant, a deliberate lie, or demonstrative of a horrendously flawed ethical system. I await your reply in the other thread. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: There surely is a way of knowing this: another version of the OT being found, with absolute varied writings, will put PAID to this question. This has not accured, and it should have - because we have relics dating over 3000 years from Judaism, and other nation's relics and monuments - but no sign of a varied OT writings. This points to a veracity of no changes. We know also the laws of the OT are unchanged, by virtue of the wars with the romans, greeks and others, which made decrees challenging Jews from observing such laws - this is evidence of no changes. Further, the numerous books of prophetic writings, which emerged every 100 years without a break, complies with the entire narratives and laws of the OT of today - these too are evidencing factors of no changes. The Tel Dan find 15 years ago, proves King david a true historical figure, one who wrote the Psalms, which mentions Moses, the OT laws and the history of the Israelites - and this is a mere 250 years from Moses, when the Torah was introduced. When examining the issues of changes, one must check if all surrounding stats are historically accurate; here, we can see the descriptions of ancient Egypt as being authentic of its described space-time, even where diets and terrains are concerned. The stats of the numerous nations and their cultures, their kings and their wars - are also authentic, down to their datings and distances from each other. This says we are dealing with a serious document, and that the stats such as laws, would be least liable for changes. That this is a book of truth, is seen in its accurate descriptions of attrocities without holding back any punches. The Israelites are the most castigated - yet this most changeable passages remain. Consider that there is no change of today's OT with the Scrolls. Admittedly, this only proves no changes for 2300 years - but this is still the longest period of no change in all recorded works.
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