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Author Topic:   The Evolution of God (Before Genesis 1:1)
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 31 of 73 (445134)
01-01-2008 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by nwr
01-01-2008 9:31 AM


Let us go back to your previous post:
quote:
A murderer uses energy when he shoots his victims. A robber uses energy to power his getaway car.
Do you agree that the energy in your previous quote was not participant of the crime but was misused / abused by the criminal?
And, your later post:
quote:
If God is energy, as you claim, then God is a participant in the crime.
Are you saying that God being energy and without his own free will participated in the crime? Or do you get the idea that God being made up of energy--as opposed to flesh and blood--and being able to give that energy, allows men to misuse HIS energy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by nwr, posted 01-01-2008 9:31 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by nwr, posted 01-01-2008 10:09 AM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 32 of 73 (445137)
01-01-2008 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by NOT JULIUS
01-01-2008 9:54 AM


Do you agree that the energy in your previous quote was not participant of the crime but was misused / abused by the criminal?
Yes, I can agree to that. But then I don't try to personify energy.
Are you saying that God being energy and without his own free will participated in the crime?
I did not say anything about free will. And it was you who said that God is energy (in the opening post).
Or do you get the idea that God being made up of energy--as opposed to flesh and blood--and being able to give that energy, allows men to misuse HIS energy?
That's a big change from what you originally stated, and it avoids the problem I pointed out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 9:54 AM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 1:12 PM nwr has replied

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 33 of 73 (445138)
01-01-2008 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
01-01-2008 9:47 AM


quote:
You made it exclusive when you said God used the forces.
I believe I said that God is made up of all sorts of energy AND he can use these forces anyway he likes it.
quote:
If we can explain the various forces without resorting to God then there is no need for inserting God...no blinders here.
I am not a scientist, but I believe that science can explain these forces taking them one force at a time. It has not come up yet with an explanation of: 'what if these forces were combined together and intead of destroying its other, instead of just holding up these forces ( like the black holes) --it would EVOLVE into something that has intelligence, can act on its own'?
If scientist won't consider this possibility, then you have your blinders.
quote:
Yes, the key words are "that can not be explained yet" and yes it is possible "that the nature of God could later on be explained by science", however, if that is the case then God is not supernatural but instead just another thing like slime and mud.
I believe that your premise is correct, but your conclusion is degrading both to men and God. Why not: If this is the case then God has allowed himself to be revealed to men more fully, and men have greatly improved their intelligence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-01-2008 9:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 01-01-2008 10:23 AM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 73 (445139)
01-01-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by NOT JULIUS
01-01-2008 10:12 AM


I believe I said that God is made up of all sorts of energy AND he can use these forces anyway he likes it.
That is saying God uses God. Sorry but that is a contentfree statement. It has no information in it.
It has not come up yet with an explanation of: 'what if these forces were combined together and intead of destroying its other, instead of just holding up these forces ( like the black holes) --it would EVOLVE into something that has intelligence, can act on its own'?
Science has not come up with the answer to why bananas are not asteroids either. What ifs are fun when you are a kid. "What if I had a magic bike?"
I believe that your premise is correct, but your conclusion is degrading both to men and God.
Of course it is degrading to God, but it is YOUR premise. You are the one who suggested "that the nature of God could later on be explained by science." Them's your exact words son. What I posted is the logical conclusion of what you proposed. If "the nature of God could later on be explained by science" then God is nothing but another natural object, like slime or mold.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 10:12 AM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 1:30 PM jar has replied

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 35 of 73 (445181)
01-01-2008 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by nwr
01-01-2008 10:09 AM


quote:
I don't try to personify energy.
We can always try, can't we? Think about God as power according to Gen 1:1, Bible in Today's English, 1966 (?) Catholic Edition (BTE) Now consider also Isaiah 40:26, BTE, which says, "WHO [as in person] CREATED [an act of a person] the stars you see? ... His power is so great--no one of them is ever missing." In short these passages, at least in my understanding, says that God is a person--not made of flesh and blood--made up of energy and forces, AND has the capacity to use these forces any way he chooses.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be preachy. I just wanted you to have a mental picture of what God is made up as a person,and his power to use these forces. In our physical world, you and I can use our hairs for example to make a useful wig!
quote:
That's a big change from what you originally stated, and it avoids the problem I pointed out.
I didn't see a big change. But, anyways even if I did, we can always change , can't we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by nwr, posted 01-01-2008 10:09 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 01-01-2008 1:25 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 36 of 73 (445187)
01-01-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NOT JULIUS
01-01-2008 1:12 PM


Think about God as power according to Gen 1:1, ...
But that's a different meaning of "power", not related to the scientific meaning, and not related to energy. It is a bit more akin to political power, roughly the ability to command and have those commands carried out.
I think you are making a big mistake by trying to connect this to scientific concepts of power and energy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 1:12 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 6:58 PM nwr has replied

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 37 of 73 (445189)
01-01-2008 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
01-01-2008 10:23 AM


quote:
That is saying God uses God. Sorry but that is a contentfree statement. It has no information in it.
If you for example a good doctor--being made of flesh and blood--uses PART of your flesh to say transplant it to your kid who is sick, is it saying you are using you? Or, is it like using PART of your flesh to heal your child? Is there no information in it?
quote:
What ifs are fun when you are a kid.
Indeed, sometimes kids asks "what ifs" that at first seem absurd but later on makes sense and used by adults to solve a problem. Agree?
quote:
Of course it is degrading to God, but it is YOUR premise. You are the one who suggested "that the nature of God could later on be explained by science." Them's your exact words son. What I posted is the logical conclusion of what you proposed. If "the nature of God could later on be explained by science" then God is nothing but another natural object, like slime or mold.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not say that if the nature of God could later on be explained by science, then "it would be degrading to God" . What I suggested was for you to change your conclusion to: 'then God allowed himself to be more fully revealed to man, and /or man's intelligence has improved.'
Sorry, but I seem to sense something wrong in your views. It appears to me that everytime science discovers something then it "degrades" that discovery to something like mud and slime? Correct me if I was wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 01-01-2008 10:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 01-01-2008 1:39 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 73 (445196)
01-01-2008 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NOT JULIUS
01-01-2008 1:30 PM


It appears to me that everytime science discovers something then it "degrades" that discovery to something like mud and slime?
Absolutely Correct.
I did not say that if the nature of God could later on be explained by science, then "it would be degrading to God" .
If "the nature of God could later on be explained by science" then God is no different than slime or puke.
Sorry but that is the only possible conclusion. If you feel it is degrading I would agree. But it is your premise that "the nature of God could later on be explained by science."

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 1:30 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 6:45 PM jar has replied

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 39 of 73 (445298)
01-01-2008 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
01-01-2008 1:39 PM


Jar,
Thanks for giving your thoughts on this post. But, I hope I won't offend you with this question:
Do you hate God, or the possibility that he will reveal more of himself to mankind through science ?
kind regards,
Great J

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 01-01-2008 1:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 01-01-2008 6:58 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 40 of 73 (445302)
01-01-2008 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by nwr
01-01-2008 1:25 PM


quote:
But that's a different meaning of "power", not related to the scientific meaning, and not related to energy. It is a bit more akin to political power, roughly the ability to command and have those commands carried out.
Is the use of "power" in Gen 1:1, BTE, to start creation akin to political power? Or is it more akin to use of an awesome energy force?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 01-01-2008 1:25 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by nwr, posted 01-01-2008 7:56 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 73 (445303)
01-01-2008 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by NOT JULIUS
01-01-2008 6:45 PM


the avatar
Do you hate God, or the possibility that he will reveal more of himself to mankind through science ?
Patrick is not too bright but I bet even Patrick would understand my avatar.
ROTFLMAO!

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 6:45 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 2:26 PM jar has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 42 of 73 (445335)
01-01-2008 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by NOT JULIUS
01-01-2008 6:58 PM


Or is it more akin to use of an awesome energy force?
It isn't at all like an awesome energy force.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-01-2008 6:58 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 2:31 PM nwr has replied

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 43 of 73 (445454)
01-02-2008 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
01-01-2008 6:58 PM


Re: the avatar
quote:
I bet even Patrick would understand my avatar.
Careful with that. I heard one named his dog according to that name. Next morning the dog was found dead. He then got a puppy and named it just the same. Next morning the man was found dead beside the puppy. Superstition ? May be. Coincidence? May be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 01-01-2008 6:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 01-02-2008 2:32 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 44 of 73 (445455)
01-02-2008 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nwr
01-01-2008 7:56 PM


quote:
It isn't at all like an awesome energy force.
BTW, Gen 1:1, BTE, was cross-referred to Act 2:1-4 where it mentioned that the house was filled by a strong wind and the occupants were filled (annointed) with the holy spirit in the form of tongues of fire. That appears to me to be awesome energy force.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by nwr, posted 01-01-2008 7:56 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by nwr, posted 01-02-2008 3:01 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 73 (445456)
01-02-2008 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by NOT JULIUS
01-02-2008 2:26 PM


Re: the avatar
And that is related to the topic in what way?
The point is, if you knew what my avatar was you would know I do not hate God.
The issue is that you keep presenting things that would make God no more than slime or snot. Science by definition can only study that which is natural. If science can someday study God then again, by definition, God is not supernatural but rather natural, snot.
That is the only possible conclusion from your assertions.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 2:26 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 3:03 PM jar has replied

  
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