Spiders are intelligent

The philosopher E. Kant argued just the opposite of what you are saying, that intelligence (or free will) is the ability to suppress one's instinct and perhaps even do the opposite. For example, when a creature like us or a racoon is hungry and there is food right there with no perceivable danger in sight, the instinct would tell us or it to eat the food. What seperates intelligent creatures like us from a racoon is that we can choose not to eat the food.

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Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

Then the racoon would still be following its instinct by mating or finding shelter. Intelligence, according to Kant, is involved when a creature has certain instinct to do something but is capable of not following through. Can a racoon simply decide to not build a dam and go on a pilgrimage to find Allah? Yes, the racoon has some choices to choose, but it is forever limited to just those choices. Do we always need a reason? Are you saying that you are absolutely incapable of choosing not to eat just because there is no particular reason?Hint: try to think outside the box rather than think in a linear fashion.A webbing spider's instinct is to create a web in a particular pattern. It doesn't have a choice. A webbing spider can't just one day decide to turn into a hunting spider. It is forever trapped in its own instinctual behavior.PS I don't particularly agree with Kant, but since he's a christian and you're a christian I thought it's a good place to start.

Any number of things. I just stood up and sat down again on my chair. There was absolutely no reason for me to do that. I just looked up to the ceiling. There was no reason for me to do that. Answer the question. Are you absolutely incapable of simply choosing to not eat when you are hungry? Try it and tell me if you are capable of simply choosing not to eat or not.

I suppose you could see it that way. I'd say you are either purposely dodging my point or you just don't get it.According to Kant, intelligence (or free will) depends on your ability to go against what is in your immediate need or option.Let's go back to the racoon. It hasn't eaten in days. It's starving. There's food right there. There is no danger that it can see or sense. A person in such a situation could, for whatever reason, choose not to eat and continue to starve. But for the racoon, I highly doubt that mating overrides its need for survival.It seems like you're just trying to dodge my point by mucking up my example.Kant argues that it's the ability to go against one's instinct, or if you'd like the ability to choose options that would fulfill less of your immediate needs. Again, you seem to be desperately trying to dodge my point by mucking up my example. And for whatever reason I blindly went along with your attempt.Kant's point wasn't to pursue other options or non-options. It's going against your survival instinct. The level of intelligence can be measured by how much one (person or animal) can resist one's instinct. Point taken. Let me rephrase the question. Are you absolutely incapable of choosing not to eat even when you are starving.Now, remember that I don't agree with Kant on this point. I'm just using a christian creationist's argument against your argument that instinct = intelligence. Obviously, christians, particularly christian creationists, don't agree with this view.

And you're still missing my point, purposely or not. I think the only other person I've talked to that purposely misses my points more is Ringo...Are you saying that in such a situation you are absolutely incapable of choosing to prevent yourself from eating? Again, you are mucking up my example.Suppose that you have been stranded on an island for a while. Food becomes a scarcity that cannot be ignored. Given the oportunity to eat food, are you telling me that you are absolutely incapable of simply choosing not to eat the food?Answer the question. Stop stalling. All this demonstrates is that they have multiple instinctual reactions to the same situation and different sheeps may react differently within certain boundaries of their preprogrammed instincts. Again, you're mucking up the example. Answer the question directly. Are you absolutely incapable of simply choosing not to eat when you are starving and food is readily available? Answer the question. Stop dodging.

I'm not saying spiders are completely unintelligent. I've said many times now, that intelligence (or free will) could be measured by one's ability to act against one's instinct. A dog obviously has some intelligence. So do dolphines. Both of these creatures we can teach and train well. But ultimately, compared to humans there are limits to what they can and cannot do.Speaking as a former arachnid collector (had to give up the hobby when I married my wife!) I once had almost a hundred 8 legged freaks running around. Especially with the more agressive tarantulas, I was able to calm some of them down and stopped attacking me on impulse. Still, that was about the only thing I could do with them. I also had a pet iquana. Again, the only thing that I was able to get him to do... or not do was try to bite my finger off everytime I held him.Others can correct me on this, but it seems like the further away you get from mammal, specifically primates, on the evolutionary tree, the more dependent the creature is on its instincts. Good point, except that you're forgetting that I'm all knowing. I have to be right all the time. If I am ever wrong, existence as we know it would be undone.PS - Of course the real argument is that instinct does not equate to intelligence. If it is, perhaps we should just scratch the English language and start using something like Greek or Vietnamese?Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Speaking of that, I don't know. What I do know is that these creatures require a lot more time and attention than the regular pets like dogs and cats. A dog will constantly remind you that it's there (I have 3 dogs). A cat you can go for a week without knowing its there (I used to have cats). An iquana or tarantula you could go for a week without thinking about it, but there are severe consequences. The agression level increases exponentially as the time you ignore it increases. Personally, I wouldn't recommend either tarantula or iquana to anyone. I've heard of cases where the favorite pet tarantula panicked and attacked the owner sending him to the emergency room. I've also heard of cases where the pet iggy ends up biting off the owner's hands. I personally have a lot of patience and respect for animal so I take care of them accordingly.Going back to training these guys, 2 of my dogs are beagles. For those of you who don't know much about dogs, beagles are famous for their resistance to dog training. They are very easy to get distracted. A regular beagle tend to follow its nose to the world's end. With that said, people often are amazed at how well behaved my beagles are. I don't ever have them on a leash anymore even when we're outside and taking a walk. They come when I tell them to. They jump into the car when I tell them to. They come inside the house when I tell them to. How did I do this? I used to spend 25 hours a day training them myself.Years of working with animal have given me some up close and personal perspective into animal intelligence versus human intelligence.