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Author Topic:   What evidence is needed to change a creationist
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 16 of 144 (445090)
01-01-2008 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rrhain
01-01-2008 3:26 AM


Re: A Whole Lot
Rrhain,
I appreciate your comments, insightful as always. But my goal with this thread is to have our creationists talk about what they would need to disprove their theory. Buz's post gave me a little insight into Buz, for example. Maybe made him think a little when writing his response. Maybe make me think a little when responding to him in the future. That is exactly what I was hoping for with this thread. But no critiques are necessary here.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 144 (445263)
01-01-2008 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Lithodid-Man
01-01-2008 4:34 AM


Re: A Whole Lot
I appreciate your clarified intent of this thread, Lithodid, in that perhaps it will serve to alleviate some of the frustration of evolutionists who see hardlined creationists as bulligerantly rejecting what evolutionists consider to be evident.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Aquilegia753
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 18 of 144 (445347)
01-01-2008 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
12-24-2007 3:33 AM


For me, you'd have to show me photographic evidence of evolution (photo 1 being the parent, 2 the child, 3 the grandchild, etc.) from one organism to a new one (a fruit fly into, say, a house fly [used purely for example]). You'd need to prove scientifically that God doesn't exist (You'd have to make me forget everything He's done for me). You'd have to prove the big bang with visual evidence (a bright light way far off in the universe would probably do that). You'd need to show me one square mile of the 'Geological Column' that has all of the layers in all the correct orders. You would have to dig all around the Sinai Peninsula to a minimal depth of a hundred and fifty feet without coming up with Egyptian chariots indicating an Exodus. Then, to top it off, show me the bones of Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Aquilegia753, posted 01-01-2008 8:53 PM Aquilegia753 has not replied
 Message 23 by bluescat48, posted 01-01-2008 11:46 PM Aquilegia753 has replied
 Message 27 by Coragyps, posted 01-02-2008 2:18 PM Aquilegia753 has replied
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 01-03-2008 9:08 PM Aquilegia753 has not replied

  
Aquilegia753
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 19 of 144 (445351)
01-01-2008 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Aquilegia753
01-01-2008 8:42 PM


I forgot to add one thing.
Even if you did all of the above mentioned, you'd have to totally blow the chance theory out of the water.
When are faced with a decision to take or not to take a chance, you want to know the risks, the cost, and the probability of winning.
The probability of evolution being correct versus creation is 50/50. It's like flipping a coin. But, let's say a friend came up to you and said, "Let's flip a coin. If it's heads, then you'll get the fifty million dollars I just won in the lottery, if you bet on heads. If you bet on tails and it lands on heads, you'll lose everything you have. If it's tails, you'll lose nothing if you bet on heads, but gain nothing if you bet on tails."
Which would you bet on? Heads, where you either win or stay the same, or tails where you either loose or stay the same?
That is what you have to disprove. You need to show me evidence that when I stay true to God, that it'll either be true and I gain everything, or it'll be false and I'll have nothing changed.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 01-01-2008 9:18 PM Aquilegia753 has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 144 (445357)
01-01-2008 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Aquilegia753
01-01-2008 8:53 PM


it's off topic here but ...
The probability of evolution being correct versus creation is 50/50.
Would you like to start a new thread on this, just so those of us that actually understand logic and reality can tear it to pieces?
Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Aquilegia753, posted 01-01-2008 8:53 PM Aquilegia753 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Aquilegia753, posted 01-01-2008 10:00 PM RAZD has replied

  
Aquilegia753
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 21 of 144 (445359)
01-01-2008 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
01-01-2008 9:18 PM


Re: it's off topic here but ...
Even if the chances were 0.000000009/99.999999991, heads/tails respectively, which would you choose. I'd still choose heads where I can only gain, not tails where you can only loose (excluding the 'staying the same' portion). It matters not what the odds are when the choice is obvious.

This message is a reply to:
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eternityfirst
Junior Member (Idle past 5929 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 12-31-2007


Message 22 of 144 (445378)
01-01-2008 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
12-24-2007 3:33 AM


Unfortunately to prove that creationism is false you would have to prove to me that the whole bible is false. The bible is the word of God and therefore absolute truth. Also, I have seen miracles of peoples lives being drastically changed as drug addicts gave their life to Jesus. I also personally have found for myself going to a "Christian" college that people will tell you anything they like that is not totally from the bible. I will check back to the scriptures after any study to find the truth and also the same with evidence for science. I am a physics major and for you to prove to me that creation did not happen you would have to tell me that the bible is not true and many have tried and could not prove it. Also by saying Genesis 1 is not true you are opening the door to saying that many other parts of the bible are not true as they are intertwined. Although if you would like to try I would be happy in answering any questions about my faith, believe me I wont get angry.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 23 of 144 (445383)
01-01-2008 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Aquilegia753
01-01-2008 8:42 PM


You would have to dig all around the Sinai Peninsula to a minimal depth of a hundred and fifty feet without coming up with Egyptian chariots indicating an Exodus.
Why would finding chariots prove that the exodus occured. All it would prove is that a chariot existed.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 24 of 144 (445393)
01-02-2008 2:43 AM


Lithodid-Man has requested that comments on creationist feedback be withheld, so I've started up a companion thread over at What is needed for creationists to connect evidence to valid conclusions.
--Percy

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 144 (445407)
01-02-2008 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by eternityfirst
01-01-2008 11:12 PM


Discussion Of Creationism
Hello, eternityfirst and welcome to EvC. (I am an administrator here, and I merged both of your accounts, since we are only allowed to have one)
I am also a Creationist, but only in a Cosmological sense. I believe in Jesus and believe that He is alive today, but I see no reason to follow the precepts of Biblical Creationism as word for word literal.
Of course, I could be wrong, and I think that if any of us are honest we would also have to admit that.
Just out of curiosity, are you a YEC?

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 144 (445442)
01-02-2008 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Aquilegia753
01-01-2008 10:00 PM


taking the "logic" to the logical conclusion ...
Even if the chances were 0.000000009/99.999999991, heads/tails respectively, which would you choose. I'd still choose heads where I can only gain, not tails where you can only loose (excluding the 'staying the same' portion).
If (big if) you assume that this dichotomy is valid, then you have what is known as Pascal's Wager, and there is this open thread to discuss it. If you want to discuss it further then you can take it there. It is an argument that assumes that a single belief is exists, which is patently false (thus the conclusion is invalid).
To demonstrate the reason why this argument absolutely fails, is that to really believe the argument you must now join, participate, accept, behave as if every single religion and form of faith known on the planet, past and present, is absolutely true.
It matters not what the odds are when the choice is obvious.
So how's Hinduism working for you? Taoism? Islam? Is the ganja helping? Finished the Eddas? The Tibetan Book of the Dead? Made your sacrifices to Ra and Quetzalcoatl?
Or are you going to engage in special pleading as well as begging the question?
But the biggest problem with your logic, going back to your previous statement:
Message 19
The probability of evolution being correct versus creation is 50/50.
Is that these are NOT mutually exclusive positions - BOTH can be true, as well as several thousand (6 billion?) variations on a theme ...
Now, to address the topic of this thread, to "change a creationist" you need to start before evidence -- you need to teach logic first, the use of reason. How to come to valid conclusions instead of wishful thinking.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clarity
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Aquilegia753, posted 01-01-2008 10:00 PM Aquilegia753 has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 27 of 144 (445452)
01-02-2008 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Aquilegia753
01-01-2008 8:42 PM


You'd have to prove the big bang with visual evidence (a bright light way far off in the universe would probably do that).
A bright microwave glow won't do? You're a few billion years too late for it to still be in the visible.....but it was once.[/ot snippet]

This message is a reply to:
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Aquilegia753
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 28 of 144 (445751)
01-03-2008 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by bluescat48
01-01-2008 11:46 PM


Quote:

"Why would finding chariots prove that the exodus occured."

Why would finding dinosaur fossils prove that dinosaurs lived on the earth? Something had to leave the chariots, and I'm pretty sure that ancient kings wouldn't drive chariots into random seas without a reason, just like modern generals wouldn't drive tanks into the oceans.

This message is a reply to:
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Aquilegia753
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 29 of 144 (445753)
01-03-2008 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coragyps
01-02-2008 2:18 PM


Quote:

"You're a few billion years too late for it to still be in the visible.....but it was once."

How can you say "It was once," and "You're a few billion years too late" in the same sentence like that? I would like to meet the person who was there 'a few billions years' ago with a telescope to see this light. And no, a microwave glow won't do, because we don't know if that glow is coming from hundreds of trillions of stars that we haven't known about way beyond the farthest reaches of our telescopes.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 144 (445774)
01-03-2008 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Aquilegia753
01-01-2008 8:42 PM


Aquilegia writes:
You would have to dig all around the Sinai Peninsula to a minimal depth of a hundred and fifty feet without coming up with Egyptian chariots indicating an Exodus.
Hi Aquilegia. Are you aware that according to the Biblical record all the chariots should be located in one crossing area at the bottom of the sea and that there is a video out of their likely discovery in the Gulf of Aqaba?
I'm wondering if you want to change your requirement relative to that rather than on land as your statement implies.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Aquilegia753, posted 01-01-2008 8:42 PM Aquilegia753 has not replied

  
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