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Author | Topic: "The OT...contains all accepted moral laws" - calling out IamJoseph | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
In another thread, IamJoseph made this statement:
The OT remains the only document containing all accepted moral.ethical laws. None come from the enlightenment: feel free to name one, or any law accepted by the world, and not contained in the OT: just ONE will do. Since a real reply to this bold statement would be off-topic in that thread, I'd like to propose a thread where the numerous examples of widely accepted moral laws not supported by or even opposed by the Old Testament can be brought to IAJ's attention. I think this would be a useful exercise for those who believe the Bible, particularly the Old testament, is an actual moral guide. My own examples will follow, should the topic be promoted. Faith and Belief, perhaps?
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Where to start, IamJoseph?
quote: So..."freedom of religion" or even tolerance of other faiths was definitely not a moral law espoused by the OT. The freedom to worship (or not worship) in whatever way one chooses is one of the most basic human rights held by the global community today. There's one example, as you requested, IAJ. Any response? Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Nothing to say for yourself, IaJ?
Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Since IaJ hasn't replied, and I think this is worth more than simply proving him wrong, I'd like to continue pointing out ethical laws either not contained in the OT, or specifically contradicted.
quote: And so on and so forth. The Bible obviously approves of slavery. Hell, the slave owners of the American South used the Bible as justification for their evil enterprise for many years - and they were right, biblically. (we won't discuss passages like Exodus 21:16 "He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death," because contradictions aren't the topic of this thread...) Slavery, of course, is reviled by the international community, and is considered one of the most abhorrent examples of human rights violations. Yet another ethical law not only absent from the OT, but directly contradicted. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Let's not forget Genocide:
gen·o·cide-noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. quote: Killing all firstborn children in Egypt, just because they were Egyptian? That qualifies as both Genocide and Infanticide. Hell, it even mixes in animal cruelty, but that's hardly surprising considering the Biblical god demands blood sacrifice constantly in the OT - half of Leviticus is given over to the rules for proper sacrifice!
quote: An entire kingdom murdered. More from Exodus:
quote: Another entire population killed. Note that "none left him alive" would mean women and children were killed, too.
quote: God himself specifically orders killing yet another tribe.
quote: So they kill all of the males...
quote: ...and took all of the women and children as slaves! But wait! Moses gets angry at this...
quote: quote: The Hebrews kill all of the male children, and any girl or woman who is not a virgin. And then they take all the virgin girls for themselves...presumably as sex slaves. So...there we have more genocide, along with sexual slavery and rape. How about the famous story of Jericho? Everyone remembers hearing about how the "walls came tumbling down" in Sunday School, right? What about the rest of the story?
quote: The Israelites killed every man, woman, child and even animal in the city. Today, children are taught happy songs about how the walls of Jericho miraculously fell. They leave out the part about soldiers tearing babies from their mothers arms and stabbing them with a sword, before killing the mother as well. The prohibition against Genocide is another ethical principle not supported in any way by the OT, but accepted as obvious by the global community today. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Even within his list of laws, some directly oppose "accepted moral, ethical laws." For example, #199: "To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46)"
I've been taking the entire OT as a whole rather than just the 613 Commandments of Judaism, but even restricting it (and his claim referred to the entire OT, not just these laws) still shows him as factually incorrect. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
I would think, by not including ritual laws, which are specific to its prefixed, 'UNTO YOU' [Israelites], and by showing some world accepted laws not contained in the OT. That would be exactly what I did, IaJ. I pointed out several "world-accepted" laws that are not contained in the OT - in fact, they are specifically opposed by the Bible.
Understand what that means. Not that there is an acknowledgement of other Gds, but that this was the percieved beliefs prior to Abraham's Monotheism. It means there are no other Gods ['I am the Lord, there is no other'/Ex]. we see that the 2nd C of Sinai forbids the worship of any components of the universe, including those on this earth, including images and animals: obviously, there can be no view that this is because the images and animals are Gds, but because it is false and a wrong path. This does not come under moral/ethical laws, but ritual. This is a good, correct, intelligent, unquestionable law, even from the pov of atheists, scientists and other belief systems. There can be no Monotheism w/o forbidding other false worshiping; this is what caused Abraham to flee his hometown in UR, with a death sentence decreed against him. In all cases of understanding the laws, its intergration premise must be factored in: one cannot conclude with a contradiction in another place - this signifies a wrong turn, an incorrect understanding. Wrong way - your bad - go back. I'm aware of what this commandment means. But it is contextually relevant to the next few quotes in supporting that the OT directly opposes the freedom to worship however and whatever an individual desires, or respecting others' rights to do so.
Human sacrifice was first forbidden in the OT; as well as incest, beastiality and basing knowledge and direction according to the occult. The term of the text is sorcerors, and this is different from modern times palm readers and crystal balls, which were murdered in 1000s by the medevial church. in biblical times, a sorceror was a very evil person, able to cause the death of a family member, or making a nation go to war, as well as inculcating very vile practices which cannot be recovered from. In all cases, the issue of a death sentence is qualified by several conditions, even before convicting the owner of an animal which killed humans - warnings and conditions apply; the penalty adaptable to the generation's held ways - even for wanton murder [capital punishment was first abolished in Israel, 2900 years ago]. But the law against ancient sorcery was a good law, and not to be confused with superstitition, today's modern white witches or bias against other forms of believers ['LOVE THE STRANGER'; etc]. Bend the words all you like, IaJ, the text specifically says to kill witches. It does not further define that a sorceror/witch/whatever you want to call it must have used their "magic" to kill, or have committed incest or bestiality - it simply says not to allow them to live. It specifically says to kill people for practicing another religion.
Read carefully this exacting text. NOT BOW = limited to worship only; AFTER THEIR WORKS = abandoning Monotheism laws and practicing Polytheism/paganism via ensnarement - inducement and purposeful design. It does not sanction being disrespectful of other beliefs or not accomodating them w/o prejudice [DO NOT VEX THE STRANGER; etc]. Here, both party's interests must be negotiated, and the stranger is also onuserable by 'HONOR THE LAWS OF THE KINGDOM WHICH HOUSES YOU'. If one accepts to go and live in Mecca, for example, they cannot flaunt that nation's laws. Are you blind? It specifically says "but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images!" It says to rip down the monuments and temples of other faiths, and destroy them! That's exactly what it says, IaJ! Those words cannot be interpreted in a different way! Do you seriously mean to say that, if the Bible says "turn left," we should be able to interpret it as "turn right?"
No covenant = which would contradict the existing Abrahamic covenant. That's your own addition, IaJ. It says not to make agreements with those who practice other faiths. Period. Stop adding words to the Bible.
This is qualified with, and applying to: 'lest they make thee sin against me'. It is an extension of the previous verse 32, namely, it refers to making covenants with them of a religious nature. It is similar to a national patriotic law, where alliegience is already made by virtue of being a citizen of a nation, which acts as a covenant. No, it specifically says that the Hebrews are not to allow people of other faiths to reside in their territory. These verses together say "Don't deal with them, don't let them live with you, don't even associate with them...and eventually, completely abolish their religions and destroy their sacred imagery, buildings, and other works." They specifically order Jews not to allow the freedom of religion, and in fact to work against anyone who doesn't worship their god.
But on a closer examination, those laws represent the antithesis of your conclusion. You can say "black is white" all you want, IaJ...but the OT specifically forbids allowing other faiths to even exist. It's right there, in print. I'm just copying the words as they are written. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4045 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Its more historical content than bible. Nor is the OT calendar undemonstrated, uneducated bible drivel - it is very active today. Nor did Babylon follow the Bible. Its not off topic if its about OT laws, many of which are calendar related. It's about "moral, ethical laws," IaJ, and has nothing to do with "calendar related" laws, or the references you believe relate to science. This thread is specifically regarding your earlier quote, where you said ALL moral and ethical laws come from the OT. Anything not related to ethics and morality as they relate to the OT is off-topic. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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