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Author Topic:   "The OT...contains all accepted moral laws" - calling out IamJoseph
Rahvin
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Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 1 of 30 (444321)
12-28-2007 9:52 PM


In another thread, IamJoseph made this statement:
The OT remains the only document containing all accepted moral.ethical laws. None come from the enlightenment: feel free to name one, or any law accepted by the world, and not contained in the OT: just ONE will do.
Since a real reply to this bold statement would be off-topic in that thread, I'd like to propose a thread where the numerous examples of widely accepted moral laws not supported by or even opposed by the Old Testament can be brought to IAJ's attention.
I think this would be a useful exercise for those who believe the Bible, particularly the Old testament, is an actual moral guide.
My own examples will follow, should the topic be promoted.
Faith and Belief, perhaps?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 12-28-2007 10:14 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 12-28-2007 10:14 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 8 by Rahvin, posted 12-31-2007 1:25 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 01-02-2008 2:16 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 4 of 30 (444332)
12-28-2007 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
12-28-2007 9:52 PM


Freedom of Religion
Where to start, IamJoseph?
quote:
Exodus
20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me
22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
So..."freedom of religion" or even tolerance of other faiths was definitely not a moral law espoused by the OT.
The freedom to worship (or not worship) in whatever way one chooses is one of the most basic human rights held by the global community today.
There's one example, as you requested, IAJ. Any response?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 12-28-2007 9:52 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Rahvin, posted 12-30-2007 3:35 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 6 by The Agnostic, posted 12-30-2007 7:27 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 14 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 6:13 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 5 of 30 (444633)
12-30-2007 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rahvin
12-28-2007 10:14 PM


Bump for IamJoseph
Nothing to say for yourself, IaJ?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 12-28-2007 10:14 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 5:20 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 8 of 30 (444930)
12-31-2007 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
12-28-2007 9:52 PM


Since IaJ hasn't replied, and I think this is worth more than simply proving him wrong, I'd like to continue pointing out ethical laws either not contained in the OT, or specifically contradicted.
quote:
Genesis 17:12-13
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised.
Exodus 12:44
But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
Exodus 21:2-6
If thou buy a Hebrew servant....
Exodus 21:7
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant....
Exodus 21:20-21
If a man smite his servant or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money.
Exodus 21:26-27
And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Exodus 22:2-3
If a thief ... have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
Leviticus 22:11
If the priest buy any soul with his money....
Leviticus 25:39
And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee....
And so on and so forth.
The Bible obviously approves of slavery. Hell, the slave owners of the American South used the Bible as justification for their evil enterprise for many years - and they were right, biblically.
(we won't discuss passages like Exodus 21:16 "He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death," because contradictions aren't the topic of this thread...)
Slavery, of course, is reviled by the international community, and is considered one of the most abhorrent examples of human rights violations.
Yet another ethical law not only absent from the OT, but directly contradicted.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 12-28-2007 9:52 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Modulous, posted 12-31-2007 1:37 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 10 by Rahvin, posted 12-31-2007 1:51 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 10 of 30 (444937)
12-31-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rahvin
12-31-2007 1:25 PM


Let's not forget Genocide:
gen·o·cide
-noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
quote:
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
Killing all firstborn children in Egypt, just because they were Egyptian? That qualifies as both Genocide and Infanticide. Hell, it even mixes in animal cruelty, but that's hardly surprising considering the Biblical god demands blood sacrifice constantly in the OT - half of Leviticus is given over to the rules for proper sacrifice!
quote:
Exodus 17:13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.
An entire kingdom murdered.
More from Exodus:
quote:
21:34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 35 So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.
Another entire population killed. Note that "none left him alive" would mean women and children were killed, too.
quote:
25:16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 25:17 Vex the Midianites, and smite them...
God himself specifically orders killing yet another tribe.
quote:
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
So they kill all of the males...
quote:
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
...and took all of the women and children as slaves!
But wait! Moses gets angry at this...
quote:
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
quote:
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
The Hebrews kill all of the male children, and any girl or woman who is not a virgin.
And then they take all the virgin girls for themselves...presumably as sex slaves.
So...there we have more genocide, along with sexual slavery and rape.
How about the famous story of Jericho? Everyone remembers hearing about how the "walls came tumbling down" in Sunday School, right?
What about the rest of the story?
quote:
Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that [was] in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
The Israelites killed every man, woman, child and even animal in the city. Today, children are taught happy songs about how the walls of Jericho miraculously fell.
They leave out the part about soldiers tearing babies from their mothers arms and stabbing them with a sword, before killing the mother as well.
The prohibition against Genocide is another ethical principle not supported in any way by the OT, but accepted as obvious by the global community today.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Rahvin, posted 12-31-2007 1:25 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 11 of 30 (444940)
12-31-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Modulous
12-31-2007 1:37 PM


Even within his list of laws, some directly oppose "accepted moral, ethical laws." For example, #199: "To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46)"
I've been taking the entire OT as a whole rather than just the 613 Commandments of Judaism, but even restricting it (and his claim referred to the entire OT, not just these laws) still shows him as factually incorrect.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Modulous, posted 12-31-2007 1:37 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 21 of 30 (445484)
01-02-2008 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by IamJoseph
01-02-2008 6:13 AM


Re: Freedom of Religion
I would think, by not including ritual laws, which are specific to its prefixed, 'UNTO YOU' [Israelites], and by showing some world accepted laws not contained in the OT.
That would be exactly what I did, IaJ. I pointed out several "world-accepted" laws that are not contained in the OT - in fact, they are specifically opposed by the Bible.
Understand what that means. Not that there is an acknowledgement of other Gds, but that this was the percieved beliefs prior to Abraham's Monotheism. It means there are no other Gods ['I am the Lord, there is no other'/Ex]. we see that the 2nd C of Sinai forbids the worship of any components of the universe, including those on this earth, including images and animals: obviously, there can be no view that this is because the images and animals are Gds, but because it is false and a wrong path. This does not come under moral/ethical laws, but ritual. This is a good, correct, intelligent, unquestionable law, even from the pov of atheists, scientists and other belief systems. There can be no Monotheism w/o forbidding other false worshiping; this is what caused Abraham to flee his hometown in UR, with a death sentence decreed against him. In all cases of understanding the laws, its intergration premise must be factored in: one cannot conclude with a contradiction in another place - this signifies a wrong turn, an incorrect understanding. Wrong way - your bad - go back.
I'm aware of what this commandment means. But it is contextually relevant to the next few quotes in supporting that the OT directly opposes the freedom to worship however and whatever an individual desires, or respecting others' rights to do so.
Human sacrifice was first forbidden in the OT; as well as incest, beastiality and basing knowledge and direction according to the occult. The term of the text is sorcerors, and this is different from modern times palm readers and crystal balls, which were murdered in 1000s by the medevial church. in biblical times, a sorceror was a very evil person, able to cause the death of a family member, or making a nation go to war, as well as inculcating very vile practices which cannot be recovered from. In all cases, the issue of a death sentence is qualified by several conditions, even before convicting the owner of an animal which killed humans - warnings and conditions apply; the penalty adaptable to the generation's held ways - even for wanton murder [capital punishment was first abolished in Israel, 2900 years ago]. But the law against ancient sorcery was a good law, and not to be confused with superstitition, today's modern white witches or bias against other forms of believers ['LOVE THE STRANGER'; etc].
Bend the words all you like, IaJ, the text specifically says to kill witches. It does not further define that a sorceror/witch/whatever you want to call it must have used their "magic" to kill, or have committed incest or bestiality - it simply says not to allow them to live. It specifically says to kill people for practicing another religion.
Read carefully this exacting text. NOT BOW = limited to worship only; AFTER THEIR WORKS = abandoning Monotheism laws and practicing Polytheism/paganism via ensnarement - inducement and purposeful design. It does not sanction being disrespectful of other beliefs or not accomodating them w/o prejudice [DO NOT VEX THE STRANGER; etc]. Here, both party's interests must be negotiated, and the stranger is also onuserable by 'HONOR THE LAWS OF THE KINGDOM WHICH HOUSES YOU'. If one accepts to go and live in Mecca, for example, they cannot flaunt that nation's laws.
Are you blind? It specifically says "but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images!" It says to rip down the monuments and temples of other faiths, and destroy them! That's exactly what it says, IaJ! Those words cannot be interpreted in a different way! Do you seriously mean to say that, if the Bible says "turn left," we should be able to interpret it as "turn right?"
No covenant = which would contradict the existing Abrahamic covenant.
That's your own addition, IaJ. It says not to make agreements with those who practice other faiths. Period. Stop adding words to the Bible.
This is qualified with, and applying to: 'lest they make thee sin against me'. It is an extension of the previous verse 32, namely, it refers to making covenants with them of a religious nature. It is similar to a national patriotic law, where alliegience is already made by virtue of being a citizen of a nation, which acts as a covenant.
No, it specifically says that the Hebrews are not to allow people of other faiths to reside in their territory. These verses together say "Don't deal with them, don't let them live with you, don't even associate with them...and eventually, completely abolish their religions and destroy their sacred imagery, buildings, and other works." They specifically order Jews not to allow the freedom of religion, and in fact to work against anyone who doesn't worship their god.
But on a closer examination, those laws represent the antithesis of your conclusion.
You can say "black is white" all you want, IaJ...but the OT specifically forbids allowing other faiths to even exist. It's right there, in print. I'm just copying the words as they are written.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 6:13 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 22 of 30 (445485)
01-02-2008 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by IamJoseph
01-02-2008 11:21 AM


Re: TIME, SCIENCE, MATHS, HISTORY & THE HEBREW CALENDAR.
Its more historical content than bible. Nor is the OT calendar undemonstrated, uneducated bible drivel - it is very active today. Nor did Babylon follow the Bible. Its not off topic if its about OT laws, many of which are calendar related.
It's about "moral, ethical laws," IaJ, and has nothing to do with "calendar related" laws, or the references you believe relate to science. This thread is specifically regarding your earlier quote, where you said ALL moral and ethical laws come from the OT. Anything not related to ethics and morality as they relate to the OT is off-topic.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 11:21 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
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