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Author | Topic: The Evolution of God (Before Genesis 1:1) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6411 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
That appears to me to be awesome energy force.
If there had been instruments present to measure energy, the chances are that those instruments would not have registered anything at all.
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NOT JULIUS Member (Idle past 4501 days) Posts: 219 From: Rome Joined: |
quote:Just kidding. My turn to laugh :=) quote: Let me try a syllogism.P1: One who is natural can not know one who is super-natural unless the latter choose to reveal himself to the former. P2: Super-natural being choose to reveal himself to natural being through science. Conclusion: Therefore, natural being can know super-natural being through science.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
nonsense.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5934 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Great J
Conclusion: Therefore, natural being can know super-natural being through science. The only problem arising is that the natural being cannot know that the other is actually supernatural if the only way the supernatural can communicate is through the natural
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NOT JULIUS Member (Idle past 4501 days) Posts: 219 From: Rome Joined: |
quote: Too bad the anemometer was not yet invented at that time. But what about the witnesses who had opposing views of the power given to them? If you will recall, the disciples were heckled as drunk with wine. On the other hand, 120 experienced that power. No one disputed though that strong gust of wind (the manifestation of the spirit, the energy force) that filled the house.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5934 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Great J
No one disputed though that strong gust of wind (the manifestation of the spirit, the energy force) that filled the house. Well we have developed new understanding for the cause of wind in recent centuries but perhaps you have been unable to keep up.
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NOT JULIUS Member (Idle past 4501 days) Posts: 219 From: Rome Joined: |
Sidelined,
quote: I don't quite get your point. Can you explain further? May be my brain went on sleep mode after looking at Jar's avatar. :=)
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NOT JULIUS Member (Idle past 4501 days) Posts: 219 From: Rome Joined: |
quote: I believe the account in Acts 2:1-13 (I'm digging into my sandwich no bible on hand ) says that a strong wind came from heaven and filled the house, AND tounges of fire descended on each of the disciples. So, when the sound ( of that strong wind)occured the multitude came together AND were bewildered because they each heard their own language being spoken by the disciples. Unable, to explain the phenomenon some accused them of being drunk. The point?a) holy spirit is energy--all sorts of energy, from fire, from wind, etc. Not only ordinary energy but one that can impart intelligence as in ability to instanteously speak foreign tounges. b) God is spirit or energy--not flesh and blood. He is not only made up energy ( a.k.a. spirit) but he can use that energy anyway he wants. c) that event was witnessed by opposing parties, and not one of them disputed the phenomena. d)unable to explain the whole phenomena, one party accused the other of being drunk. Now, do they also have instruments that measure almost simultaneously the occurence of strong wind, AND the tounges of fire, AND the ability to instantaneously speak foreign language?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: ... a strong wind came from heaven and filled the house... There was no wind. It was a sound like wind:
quote: ... AND tounges of fire descended on each of the disciples. There was no fire. There were tongues like fire:
quote: The mundane images of wind and fire were used to describe an unearthly, unknown phenomenon.
a) holy spirit is energy--all sorts of energy, from fire, from wind, etc. Much as you have tried to drag the Holy Spirit down to the level of measurable energy, that's not what the Bible says.
Not only ordinary energy but one that can impart intelligence as in ability to instanteously speak foreign tounges. There's no indication that there was any "intelligence" imparted. The story suggests that the Spirit spoke through the disciples, not that it "taught" them different languages. Are you familiar with the speaking-in-tongues phenomenon at all? Typically, the speaker doesn't know what he/she is saying and retains no knowledge of the "language".
c) that event was witnessed by opposing parties, and not one of them disputed the phenomena. d)unable to explain the whole phenomena, one party accused the other of being drunk. Those two statements are contradictory. The ones who suspected drunkenness certainly were disputing the "phenomenon". “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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NOT JULIUS Member (Idle past 4501 days) Posts: 219 From: Rome Joined: |
Hi Ringo,
I follow this rule in interpretation: "plain words, plain meaning, unless resulting interpretation results in absurdity or unreasonableness" you said:
quote:However the passage you quoted says, quote:I think the plain meaning--no need of reconstruction--is there was a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house. Sounds an awesome energy force to me. You said:quote:That is how you understood my statements. But, what I said was spirit=energy. I cited Genesis 1:1,Isaiah 40:26, Acts 2:1-13 BTE, as my source. I never said measurable. Did I? you said: quote: My familiarity is of no value. What is important is what the account said. I guess it said that when the holy spirit--that powerful energy /force--from God descended upon the disciples, they talked and their listeners were able to discern that they ( the disciples) were talking in their ( the listeners') tongues or langguage. Plain meaning, right ? you said:quote: I believe there was no contradiction. Here is why.1. Both parties did not dispute the OCCURENCE of the phenomena of the strong wind and the sudden ability of the disciples to speak foreign tongues. 2. What they could not explain /or agree was the CAUSE(s) of these phenomena. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by Great J, : No reason given. Edited by Great J, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: I think the plain meaning--no need of reconstruction--is there was a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house. That's right, a sound like a wind, not an actual wind.
Sounds an awesome energy force to me. Awesome, probably, but an "energy force", no. Both force and energy (not the same, by the way) can be detected and measured. That would make it far less awesome. There is nothing in the text to suggest that it there was any detectable "energy". You're making that part up.
But, what I said was spirit=energy. [...] I never said measurable. Did I? Energy is measurable.
I cited Genesis 1:1,Isaiah 40:26, Acts 2:1-13 BTE, as my source. Nothing in Genesis 1:1-2 backs you up:
quote: Neither does Isaiah:
quote: Neither does Acts, as I have already shown. There is nothing in any of those passages to suggest that spirit = energy.
quote: My familiarity is of no value. So I guess that's a "no". The reason I asked was because you claimed that there was some kind of "intelligence" imparted. That's wrong. Speaking in tongues, as in Acts, is more like the Holy Spirit using a person as a puppet. There's no intelligence involved.
1. Both parties did not dispute the OCCURENCE of the phenomena of the strong wind and the sudden ability of the disciples to speak foreign tongues. That's not what it says, though:
quote: The "others" mocked the phenomenon. They wouldn't have mocked if they had heard it themselves, would they? So apparently they didn't believe that the others had heard anything either.
2. What they could not explain /or agree was the CAUSE(s) of these phenomena. But they did explain it - as drunkenness. It isn't particularly important to the discussion. It's just an illustration of how you see what you want to see in the text instead of what's really there. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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NOT JULIUS Member (Idle past 4501 days) Posts: 219 From: Rome Joined: |
quote: Yes, or no please. If a non-moving thing like a house, a chair, etc, moves was there a force or energy applied or none? Follow up question: why did the writer write rushing mighty wind and filled the house if there was no movement in that house at all?
quote: Perhaps you did not check my original post. My reference on Genesis 1:1-2 was BTE where it is specifically mentioned that spirit of God=Power of God. BTW, the Hebrew word "Ruach" is translated "spirit" in English. And Bible translators agree that spirit = power. Power = energy force. Of course, you can not find the word "energy" in these bible passages because remember it was written long time ago, when the word "energy" was not yet known.If the bible writer(s) would have used "energy" the reader would say DUH? So, they had to use language that was understandable to them at that time: power=energy. As regards Acts 2:1-3, it was just a fulfillment of Jesus command to his disciples, after he was resurrected. He said 'go to the city (Jerusalem) and wait for the POWER on high to be given to you'. ( Luke 24:49, BTE). As regards, Isaiah 40:26, your quoted text mentions "his might", "he is strong in POWER". Write that as 'he has strong ENERGY, and you will have rabid bible critics howling: 'see Isaiah was written in the 40's ! or about the time the word "energy" came to being. Oh by the way, do the stars release power ( energy) or not? If yes, where did this come from according to Isaiah 40:26?
quote: Are you saying that speaking in foreign tongue does not require intelligence?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: If a non-moving thing like a house, a chair, etc, moves was there a force or energy applied or none? If an object moves, we look for a natural force.
why did the writer write rushing mighty wind and filled the house if there was no movement in that house at all? The writer wrote that there was a sound and that the sound was like a wind. There is simply nothing in the text to suggest that there was any movement in the house.
Perhaps you did not check my original post. My reference on Genesis 1:1-2 was BTE where it is specifically mentioned that spirit of God=Power of God. First, your reference is in Message 18, not the OP. Second, a footnote is just somebody's opinion. It has no bearing on the meaning of the text. Third, it has already been explained to you that the "power of God" doesn't mean power in the sense that it's used in physics.
And Bible translators agree that spirit = power. You haven't shown that. You've shown the footnote-opinion of one translator and you've misunderstood what "power" means in the literary sense as opposed to what "power" means in the scientific sense.
Of course, you can not find the word "energy" in these bible passages because remember it was written long time ago, when the word "energy" was not yet known. Or.. they didn't say "energy" because they didn't mean "energy".
Oh by the way, do the stars release power ( energy) or not? I don't think you'll find anywhere where the Bible says they do.
Are you saying that speaking in foreign tongue does not require intelligence? Yes. That's the whole point. It's the Holy Spirit speaking, not the ventriloquist's dummy. Remember Balaam's ass?
quote: If an ass can speak in tongues, how much intelligence is required? “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Great winds do small flames blow out, unless it is great winds caused by too many baked beans in which case small flames can create great fire balls when encountering said winds.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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NOT JULIUS Member (Idle past 4501 days) Posts: 219 From: Rome Joined: |
Ringo,
quote:A FORCE nonetheless. quote: A rushing mighty wind that filled the house, and no movement at all. Can you believe that?
quote: Or, the footnote is an aid to undertanding the particular word. And, that somebody's opinion by the way, is just from the masters of their own field--the bible scholars/ translators. If you use the theasaurus on your word document, and type the word "POWER" it will give you several synonyms among which are: "FORCE", and "ENERGY". The Bible writers, by the way, did not study physics. They observed that in their physical world if something moves it must have been caused by Power. And, the word "power" means "ENERGY" or "FORCE" in our modern language. Again, check a respectable thesaurus.
quote: I thought man has free will, the right to say yes or no. And, I really thought that man's intelligence is different from an ass. If you don't agree, then we'll never be on the same page. Edited by Great J, : No reason given.
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