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Topic: Did Eyelids Evolve?
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 5 of 117 (445905)
01-04-2008 11:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 9:57 AM
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On mammalian eyelids.
Is it the EVO position that early humans may not have had eyelids, but after millions of years the body started saying to its babies "form something over your eyes to keep foreign objects out" or "form something over the eyes that will help us rest for 8 hours"? No, that is not something anyone but a Creationist would say.
If no, what do EVO's believe on human evolution as it relates to the eyelid? Humans are just another mammal. Mammals all have eyelids. But it is one of the last traits to develop during a pregnancy. Initially they are closed, sealed shut and in many mammals they stay that was until long after birth. Think about kitties and puppies and mice. Even earlier ancestors such as reptiles and birds have a nictitating membrane.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by TheDarin, posted 01-04-2008 9:57 AM | | TheDarin has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 7 of 117 (445910)
01-04-2008 11:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Chiroptera
01-04-2008 11:08 AM
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on Sharks
Many Sharks have a nictitating membrane as well.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Chiroptera, posted 01-04-2008 11:08 AM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 10 of 117 (445951)
01-04-2008 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 1:57 PM
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Re: Eyelids Period
Is it the EVO position that early living beings with eyeballs may not have had eyelids, but after millions of years the the EVO-Code started saying to offspring "form something over your eyes to keep foreign objects out" or "form something over the eyes that will help us rest for 8 hours"? No! Many critters even today do not have eyelids or retractable eyes or nictitating membranes. There is no goal or plan for evolution. It is not directed. However the fact that all mammals do have eyelids is another pretty strong supporting part of Evolution.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by TheDarin, posted 01-04-2008 1:57 PM | | TheDarin has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 19 of 117 (445985)
01-04-2008 4:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 4:00 PM
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Re: One topic at a time.
I did not just respond to him hmmmmm; I rebutted with a second question regarding symmetry and how his answers jives with the human reproductive system. That is not a rebuttal, but rather the Gish Gallop.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by TheDarin, posted 01-04-2008 4:00 PM | | TheDarin has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 27 of 117 (446015)
01-04-2008 4:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 4:43 PM
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Re: Eyelids Period
Because what you are doing is just palming the pea. It is a shyster game made famous by Duane Gish. You bring up a subject but when you get a response you do not admit that it has been refuted and try to move the goal posts. Once you work through your string of fallacies we will find ourselves back at the initial question all over again, and the beat goes on. The topic, in case you missed it, is "Did Eyelids Evolve?"
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by TheDarin, posted 01-04-2008 4:43 PM | | TheDarin has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 29 of 117 (446021)
01-04-2008 5:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 5:02 PM
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Topic
Because what you are doing is just palming the pea. It is a shyster game made famous by Duane Gish. You bring up a subject but when you get a response you do not admit that it has been refuted and try to move the goal posts. Once you work through your string of fallacies we will find ourselves back at the initial question all over again, and the beat goes on. The topic, in case you missed it, is "Did Eyelids Evolve?"
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by TheDarin, posted 01-04-2008 5:02 PM | | TheDarin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 30 by TheDarin, posted 01-04-2008 5:16 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 32 of 117 (446028)
01-04-2008 5:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 5:16 PM
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Re: Topic
Topic. In case you missed it is: " Did Eyelids Evolve?"
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by TheDarin, posted 01-04-2008 5:16 PM | | TheDarin has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 69 of 117 (448625)
01-14-2008 12:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by Aladon
01-14-2008 4:27 AM
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Ah, you are unique, a new step on the evolutionary trail. Can you tell us more about that trait? Do you have pictures? This is very exciting and many here would love to know more.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by Aladon, posted 01-14-2008 4:27 AM | | Aladon has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 74 of 117 (448649)
01-14-2008 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by Aladon
01-14-2008 6:08 PM
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"God did it" does in actual fact have a mechanism. Not really. Maybe once you place God out there to be examined it might be a mechanism but until then GodDidIt is simply contentfree and worthless.
What you are doing is merely disposing of the 'God did it' theory because you have prepositioned yourself as an atheist or agnostic. Nonsense. Christians support evolution unless they are set on denying God and passing on a culture of ignorance to their children. In the words of the Clergy Project, and open letter on the subject endorsed by over 11,000 US Christian Clergy:
To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. The evolution of things like eyelids has NOTHING to do with God or Atheism.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Aladon, posted 01-14-2008 6:08 PM | | Aladon has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 78 of 117 (448654)
01-14-2008 6:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 76 by Aladon
01-14-2008 6:42 PM
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denial?
You can refuse to face facts, truth and honesty if you want. However that happens to be truth and fact. In the words of St. Augustine:
quote:
"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" St Augustine
Why must you continue "speaking so idiotically on these matters?" Check the facts. Here is a link to the Clergy Project Letter where you can read the full statement.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by Aladon, posted 01-14-2008 6:42 PM | | Aladon has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by Aladon, posted 01-14-2008 7:05 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 82 of 117 (448663)
01-14-2008 7:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Aladon
01-14-2008 7:05 PM
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Re: denial?
With respect, I neither read letters from so called Saints or letters from Clergy. That is called "Willful Ignorance."
I read the Bible and the works of Scholars who do not 'interpret' God's Word, but divide it and examine it correctly. Yet more "Willful Ignorance."
What about you? I've read some of your remarks elsewhere and it's obvious you have never really studied the Bible? What gives you the right to comment on it? Wearing out more Bibles than most folk have. Having been a Christian for over 60 years. BUT, the topic is "Did Eyelids Evolve?", and we are in a Science forum called "Biological Evolution." If you have anything related to the actual topic, we would love to examine it.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Aladon, posted 01-14-2008 7:05 PM | | Aladon has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by Aladon, posted 01-14-2008 7:23 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 86 of 117 (448673)
01-14-2008 7:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by Aladon
01-14-2008 7:23 PM
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Re: denial?
Okay, is there any transitional evidence for the eyelid or any other of modern mans parts or functions? Eyelids are one thing that goes back a long, long ways, long before humans. They are common to almost all mammals as well as many of the critters that preceded mammals.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by Aladon, posted 01-14-2008 7:23 PM | | Aladon has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 107 of 117 (448798)
01-15-2008 9:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 104 by Aladon
01-15-2008 9:13 AM
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on eyelid evolution
So, eyelids. Great little things. Fascinating that they allow just enough light through to wake you up naturally in the morning. Guess what, nocturnal critters have eyelids as well. All of your close relatives, chimps, gorillas, bonobos and orangutans have eyelids. Almost all mammals have eyelids and many reptiles, amphibians and birds have eyelids. It appears that eyelids developed pretty early on and so talking about humans and evolving eyelids is somewhat silly. Humans, like almost all mammals, have eyelids.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 104 by Aladon, posted 01-15-2008 9:13 AM | | Aladon has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by Aladon, posted 01-15-2008 10:26 AM | | jar has not replied |
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