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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 181 of 301 (446375)
01-06-2008 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by jaywill
01-05-2008 10:45 PM


Re: False brothers and the Tares
You wrote for me to take it from you as from a christian brother. So you believe that the Lord Jesus has been raised from the dead ?
indeed. i accepted jesus christ as my saviour almost 11 years ago now (i'm not very old), and have had a long and meandering spiritual journey since then. i have come to question many of the teachings of the various churches i went to, but have never lost my faith. you may consider that apostate, but that is hardly your place to judge.
Or do you just mean you believe in the golden rule or that Jesus was a good moral teacher? How can you know that I am a Christian brother ?
you profess to be a christian, and i don't walk around assuming everyone lies to me, like this:
The New Testament talks about "false brothers" (2 Cor.11:6). The Apostle Paul said that he was "in danger among false brothers". Some people were professing with their mouth that they were Christian brothers to Paul. Actually they were a danger to him.
this is the sort of paranoia i'm talking about. it's dangerous, and it's offensive, and it's counter to any evangelical message you might espouse.
Did you ever read the parable about the wheat and the tares in Matthew?
it's amazing that you can post the whole thing, and miss the point of the last line.
It is not the job of the disciples to chase false Christians out of the world. The job of taking care of the stumbling blocks of the false brothers is left to the angels at the consummation of the world.
or perhaps not. it is not for the wheat to uproot the tares.
The reason I write this is to warn you. You said to me "take it from a christian brother". And then you tell me that spiritual warfare is all in the head. It is all in the imagination.
because it is. you have totally missed the point i was getting at -- which is that if you have faith in christ, the battle has been won. if that sounds like the enemy speaking, well, you've completely lost sight of what it means to be a christian, and this is why we are having this discussion.
you have been confused and confounded by people who speak the enemy's message of isolation, paranoia, and judgemental attitudes. satan wants you to see him everywhere, in your fellow christians, because that will drive you away from your brothers and sisters. do not listen to these people.
Unbeknown to you , I have a concern that you possibly are a tare.
i gathered.
What could be more frustrating for the spiritual growth of a Christian than for someone professing falsely to be his "christian brother" teach him that spiritual conflict is all in the head?
again, i'm telling you that there is nothing more frustrating for a growing christian than thinking there is a great war going on for his soul. and i tell you this from experience. trust god, and have faith in christ, and you are saved. there is no war; it has already been won. the end of your frustration is christ.
why do you not understand what i am saying? has the enemy confused you so much that you see him in your fellow christians, or anyone who thinks a little differently?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2008 10:45 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jaywill, posted 01-06-2008 9:01 AM arachnophilia has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 182 of 301 (446409)
01-06-2008 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by arachnophilia
01-06-2008 12:08 AM


Re: False brothers and the Tares
indeed. i accepted jesus christ as my saviour almost 11 years ago now (i'm not very old), and have had a long and meandering spiritual journey since then. i have come to question many of the teachings of the various churches i went to, but have never lost my faith. you may consider that apostate, but that is hardly your place to judge.
I do not consider wandering apostate. If I had I would not have told you of my own wanderings in that past.
Me:
Or do you just mean you believe in the golden rule or that Jesus was a good moral teacher? How can you know that I am a Christian brother ?
Another jumping to a false conclusion.
If you'll notice I ASKED you a question.
And if you'll notice I don't think I used the word "lie"
in reference to what you wrote.
There is a thing as simply being mistaken. Now I did write that "you know who" is a big liar. But I didn't "walk around" assuming that you lied.
I asked you "Are you really a Christian brother?"
Me:
The New Testament talks about "false brothers" (2 Cor.11:6). The Apostle Paul said that he was "in danger among false brothers". Some people were professing with their mouth that they were Christian brothers to Paul. Actually they were a danger to him.
You:
this is the sort of paranoia i'm talking about. it's dangerous, and it's offensive, and it's counter to any evangelical message you might espouse.
That's your opinion. Noted. However, that depends.
You said that you have been a Christian not a long time. Well, comaratively I have been a disciple longer. And I know that a false brother can cause troubles to real believers. People have been abused, business partners have been cheated, things have been stolen in situations where Christian fellowship was being assumed when it actually was not.
Me:
Did you ever read the parable about the wheat and the tares in Matthew?
You:
it's amazing that you can post the whole thing, and miss the point of the last line.
Not sure if this is you or me:
It is not the job of the disciples to chase false Christians out of the world. The job of taking care of the stumbling blocks of the false brothers is left to the angels at the consummation of the world.
If you are pointing this out as the point of the parable, I agree that this is one important point.
However, isn't it also important that the potentially false brother be warned that he is in danger of suffering the fate of a tare if he does not get saved? So that too is a lesson of the parable.
or perhaps not. it is not for the wheat to uproot the tares.
But the wheat may ask the tares a question. Or the wheat may instruct the tares.
Me:
The reason I write this is to warn you. You said to me "take it from a christian brother". And then you tell me that spiritual warfare is all in the head. It is all in the imagination.
because it is. you have totally missed the point i was getting at -- which is that if you have faith in christ, the battle has been won. if that sounds like the enemy speaking, well, you've completely lost sight of what it means to be a christian, and this is why we are having this discussion.
Saying we have victory in Christ is not the same naive things which you have been claiming.
The battle has been won by Christ. We have to apply by faith the victory by abiding in Him and in the Body of Christ.
The Apostle Paul surely was a mature overcoming believer who subjectively knew victory in Christ yet he did not teach that spiritual warfare was all in the heads of the Ephesians. Rather He wrote this:
Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength. Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against all the stratagems of the devil.
For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers ofthis darkness, against the spiritual [forces] of evil in the heavenlies.
Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth and having put on the breastplate of righteousness.
And having shod your feet with the firm foundation of the gospel of peace; Besides all thesee, having taken up the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. (Eph. 6:10 - 16)
Compare that to the spirit of your saying "Spiritual warfare is all in your head. The battle is over. There is no Satan who decieved man in the beginning. Don't be so obsessed with the Devil looking for him everywhere in the Bible. There is no need to fight any spiritual battle."
Not quite the same is it?
you have been confused and confounded by people who speak the enemy's message of isolation, paranoia, and judgemental attitudes. satan wants you to see him everywhere, in your fellow christians, because that will drive you away from your brothers and sisters. do not listen to these people.
So you count Ephesians 6:10-16 as Christian paranoia?
I don't. I think it has its proper place. And I am not prejudicial against putting on the whole armor of God for spiritual warfare.
There is nothing of the flavor of, "You don't NEED to worry about any spiritual battle" in that passage. So I agree that in Christ we overcome, as I stated before. But you are dressing up naivete in a unbiblical way.
But I forgive you. And I think you did learn something.
again, i'm telling you that there is nothing more frustrating for a growing christian than thinking there is a great war going on for his soul.
Maybe that is because your experience is more individualistic and isolated.
When you enter into building and being knit together in the Body of Christ we have to be very vigilant.
and i tell you this from experience. trust god, and have faith in christ, and you are saved. there is no war; it has already been won. the end of your frustration is christ.
Yes. Trust God. Have faith in Christ. And receive the whole council of God without preference or prejudicial choosing according to your personal tastes.
why do you not understand what i am saying? has the enemy confused you so much that you see him in your fellow christians, or anyone who thinks a little differently?
You say I don't understand what you're saying. I understand you much better than you think.
But I am also concerned for this: Paul said that he did not withhold ANYTHING that was profitable. He went teaching publically and from house to house declaring the whole council of God. He did not withhold any profitable spiritual wisdom which he had learned.
There is a place for awareness of spiritual warefare. Denying it as you have does not really suggest that much victory in Christ as you think. It may reveal that you are more accustomed to the milk of the word of God and have not taken in much meat as more solid food.
And there is nothing wrong with that. But in emphasizing love, fellowship, sweet communion, oneness, one accord, the brotherhood - be careful not to go too far discarding portions of the New Testament which are profitable.
Besides, THIS particular discussion has been about the enemy of God. So how can I avoid speaking of spiritual warfare? I cannot. And it is very naive to assume that I could, for a disciple of Christ supposedly familiar with the Gospels.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by arachnophilia, posted 01-06-2008 12:08 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jaywill, posted 01-06-2008 9:21 AM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 183 of 301 (446410)
01-06-2008 9:13 AM


Stopping to Give Thanks for a moment
indeed. i accepted jesus christ as my saviour almost 11 years ago
That's wonderful Arachnaphelia. That is wonderful.
Arachnophelia is a believer in the Lord Jesus. I thank God. I am so happy. Praise the Lord.
Eleven years ago ? Praise the living and victorius Jesus.
I confess I sometimes had a question mark. Well, I did learn something today.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 184 of 301 (446411)
01-06-2008 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by jaywill
01-06-2008 9:01 AM


Re: Correction of poor phrasing
ARachnophelia There is a misunderstanding;
When I wrote "Unbeknown to you I have a concern that you are a tare" That was not what I meant to write. It was very poorly phrased.
What I meant was this: Unbeknown to a person, that person could be being utlized AS a tare among wheat.
In other words, that person may be being munipulated by the enemy of God without that person being aware of it.
That is what I meant. I was really being rushed. Sorry for the mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jaywill, posted 01-06-2008 9:01 AM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 185 of 301 (446416)
01-06-2008 9:34 AM


indeed. i accepted jesus christ as my saviour almost 11 years ago now (i'm not very old), and have had a long and meandering spiritual journey since then. i have come to question many of the teachings of the various churches i went to, but have never lost my faith. you may consider that apostate, but that is hardly your place to judge. Arachnophelia
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Raphael
Member (Idle past 463 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 186 of 301 (446884)
01-07-2008 12:49 PM


hmm......very interesting question "Should we love Satan?". Well, i Suppose, at least its my personal belief that Satan hates us more than anything. I suppose we should feel a sort of...empathy toward the poor creture, and i think God certanly feels sorrow that one of His most beautiful creations turned against him. Should we Love Satan? that depends on what you mean "Love".
Raph
Edited by Raphael, : punctuation

Truth is still Truth, Weather One or a Thousand People believe it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 3:25 PM Raphael has not replied
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 01-08-2008 3:47 PM Raphael has not replied
 Message 192 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 4:43 PM Raphael has replied
 Message 194 by arachnophilia, posted 01-08-2008 7:00 PM Raphael has not replied
 Message 198 by IamJoseph, posted 01-09-2008 3:07 AM Raphael has not replied

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 187 of 301 (447217)
01-08-2008 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
11-28-2007 10:23 AM


Hey I saw you post this
quote:
Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
on CARM and you didn't get very far with it there. Why do you think your audience is more receptive to your allusions in this forum? I hope you thought about it and have formulated a theory at least as profound as the OP one. I think you are sooooooooo clever, your name suggests what your wisdom proves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 11-28-2007 10:23 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by AdminPhat, posted 01-08-2008 3:41 PM ThreeDogs has replied
 Message 193 by Greatest I am, posted 01-08-2008 4:57 PM ThreeDogs has replied

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 188 of 301 (447219)
01-08-2008 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Raphael
01-07-2008 12:49 PM


Of course you should love satan. Man oh man can he throw a party. Everyone is welcome and you don't have to bring your own bottle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Raphael, posted 01-07-2008 12:49 PM Raphael has not replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 301 (447224)
01-08-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by ThreeDogs
01-08-2008 3:23 PM


Welcome to EvC
Welcome to EvC, Three Dogs. Stick around if you want to learn anything...many of these folks are quite bright!
Be nice and you and I will get along famously!
Edited by AdminPhat, : spelling
Edited by AdminPhat, : sig box

The EvC Community

We discuss the ongoing debate between Creationism and Evolution. Some of our moderators are creationists and some are strictly science minded, but we all have seen the many facets of this type of debate/discussion. We have some basic Forum Guidelines and we encourage the following:
*********************************
  • Our Posting Board has three basic groups of forums. Our Science Forums necessitate evidence, support, and documentation. Our Social and Religious Issues forums allow for more leeway in expression of reasoned beliefs and tradition without as much emphasis on proof. Finally, we have a Coffee House in which any basic topic unrelated to the other two groups can be discussed in more of a casual atmosphere.
  • If you are warned by an administrator or moderator for any reason you can argue your case in the Discussion of Moderation Procedures thread.
  • If you are not promoted, feel free to discuss your reasons here in the Proposed New Topics thread. You may edit your post at any time in order to make it more presentable...at which time we will reconsider promotion. Usually, we leave topic promotion to the first administrator that responds, unless that administrator invites others to comment.
    ************************************
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    AdminPhat

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 187 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 3:23 PM ThreeDogs has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 190 of 301 (447229)
    01-08-2008 3:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 186 by Raphael
    01-07-2008 12:49 PM


    Playing Devils Advocate
    Raphael writes:
    I suppose we should feel a sort of...empathy toward the poor creature, and i think God certainly feels sorrow that one of His most beautiful creations turned against him.
    Hmmmm...lets ask Mr. Dictionary for a ruling on this one!
    Websters writes:
    empathy \em-pe-the\ n : the experiencing as one's own of the feelings of another; also : the capacity for this empathic \em-pa-thik\ adj
    How would we even be able to feel empathy for an angelic(fallen angelic/demonic) creature?
    One problem with even attempting to understand Satan is the lack of definable sources of information as to who and what he actually is.

    "All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
    * * * * * * * * * *
    “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    "The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 186 by Raphael, posted 01-07-2008 12:49 PM Raphael has not replied

    ThreeDogs
    Member (Idle past 5851 days)
    Posts: 77
    From: noli me calcare
    Joined: 01-08-2008


    Message 191 of 301 (447251)
    01-08-2008 4:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 189 by AdminPhat
    01-08-2008 3:41 PM


    Re: Welcome to EvC
    Hey, Phat, I tried to put an avatar under my name, and it simply would not comply. Maybe if I smile at it nicely?
    I am always nice. I am also always short and to the point. If you frown on such a style, I'm busted.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 189 by AdminPhat, posted 01-08-2008 3:41 PM AdminPhat has not replied

    ThreeDogs
    Member (Idle past 5851 days)
    Posts: 77
    From: noli me calcare
    Joined: 01-08-2008


    Message 192 of 301 (447253)
    01-08-2008 4:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 186 by Raphael
    01-07-2008 12:49 PM


    quote:
    I suppose we should feel a sort of...empathy toward the poor creture
    Empathy? Holy cow, no!
    em·pa·thy
    -noun 1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
    2. the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself: By means of empathy, a great painting becomes a mirror of the self.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 186 by Raphael, posted 01-07-2008 12:49 PM Raphael has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 195 by Raphael, posted 01-09-2008 2:18 AM ThreeDogs has not replied

    Greatest I am
    Member (Idle past 274 days)
    Posts: 1676
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 193 of 301 (447260)
    01-08-2008 4:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 187 by ThreeDogs
    01-08-2008 3:23 PM


    Re: Hey I saw you post this
    The less fundamental the site the beter is the dialog.
    At least they do not kick people out just because of their ideas.
    Regards
    DL

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 187 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 3:23 PM ThreeDogs has replied

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     Message 201 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 9:37 AM Greatest I am has not replied

    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1344 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 194 of 301 (447289)
    01-08-2008 7:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 186 by Raphael
    01-07-2008 12:49 PM


    "Should we love Satan?"
    considering that satan is the enemy, one wonders what jesus meant when he said "love your enemy"
    (jaywill, i'll get back to your posts in a bit)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 186 by Raphael, posted 01-07-2008 12:49 PM Raphael has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 196 by IamJoseph, posted 01-09-2008 2:55 AM arachnophilia has replied
     Message 202 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 9:58 AM arachnophilia has not replied

    Raphael
    Member (Idle past 463 days)
    Posts: 173
    From: Southern California, United States
    Joined: 09-29-2007


    Message 195 of 301 (447374)
    01-09-2008 2:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 192 by ThreeDogs
    01-08-2008 4:43 PM


    ThreeDogs said:
    Empathy? Holy cow, no!
    empathy. obviously a wrong chioce of words...eh....sympathy more like it. Phat was right when he said we dont know enough about him to relate. I think we should just follow what Jesus said and did.
    Raph

    Truth is still Truth, Weather One or a Thousand People believe it.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 4:43 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

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