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Author Topic:   Spiders are intelligent
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 46 of 147 (446420)
01-06-2008 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by bluegenes
01-06-2008 7:45 AM


Spider can learn to build a web in weightless environment
Neurobiologists aren't experts at defining words, are they. And would most agree that spiders can't learn from experience? If a pet spider can learn not to be afraid of its owner, and not to react as it would in the wild, as I think someone suggested further up the thread, then doesn't that show a capacity to acquire and apply knowledge? And if young spiders can be shown to learn from errors in web building, as birds do when building their first nests, then they appear to fit that basic definition.
I recall an article about a spider that was taken into space to see how it coped with weightlessness. It's initial attempts at building a web were poor, but within 3 days it built a normal web although the silk was woven finer. (Although the article did not mention the reason, it could be because a lighter duty web is sufficient in a weightless environment).
This certainly demonstrates adaptability in the short term, and adds to the evidence of the spider being capable of a comprehensive target, rather than a just a complex outcome arising from a string of simple automatic actions. A program that was written to cope with a fixed input value (in this case gravity) would normal fail if the input value was changed. This would suggest web building is more than programmed response.
Edited by sinequanon, : Added subtitle.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 147 (446422)
01-06-2008 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 9:47 AM


Re: Spider can learn to build a web in weightless environment
I recall an article about a spider that was taken into space to see how it coped with weightlessness. It's initial attempts at building a web were poor, but within 3 days it built a normal web although the silk was woven finer. (Although the article did not mention the reason, it could be because a lighter duty web is sufficient in a weightless environment).
Actually that is not quite how it was. The initial webs were very much like the controls while later webs changed; likely because they did not have gravity as a clue and due to starvation. There was nothing in the experiment that showed any learning ability.
Source

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 9:47 AM sinequanon has replied

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 Message 49 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 10:16 AM jar has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 48 of 147 (446425)
01-06-2008 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
01-06-2008 9:54 AM


Re: Spider can learn to build a web in weightless environment
I'd be surprised if they could actually learn to cope with an environment like that.
Here's a spider nut who thinks they're intelligent, though, and this is more impressive than anything I've observed in my garden!
The intelligent Neoscona crucifera

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sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 49 of 147 (446428)
01-06-2008 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
01-06-2008 9:54 AM


Re: Spider can learn to build a web in weightless environment
Thanks for the link, jar. This is a much more authoritative account of the experiment than the one I recall.
So, it appears that the spiders adapted immediately. It would be interesting to see the full article and any comments on how functional the webs were.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 53 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 3:23 PM sinequanon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 147 (446430)
01-06-2008 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 10:16 AM


Re: Spider can learn to build a web in weightless environment
So, it appears that the spiders adapted immediately.
Actually no it does not appear they adapted immediately, rather they simply continued doing what they had always done. However as they adapted they could not compensate for the lack of gravity as a clue and the webs became thiner and less regular.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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Replies to this message:
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sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 51 of 147 (446433)
01-06-2008 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
01-06-2008 10:21 AM


Re: Spider can learn to build a web in weightless environment
Different interpretations of the same article stub!
They changed. The webs were different, so, unless you are able to predict the changes in angle and spiralling, I do not think it is valid to claim "they simply continued doing what they had always done".
The question in my mind is, "were the adaptations beneficial?". Comments on the functionality of the web would be necessary to assess that.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 147 (446439)
01-06-2008 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 10:28 AM


Re: Spider can learn to build a web in weightless environment
The question in my mind is, "were the adaptations beneficial?". Comments on the functionality of the web would be necessary to assess that.
You can read the full article here

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 53 of 147 (446529)
01-06-2008 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 10:16 AM


Going to answer my question any time soon?
Sin, are you going to become one of "those"?
Please answer my questions:
Define intelligence.
Define instinct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 10:16 AM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 3:53 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 54 of 147 (446540)
01-06-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by bluegenes
01-06-2008 7:45 AM


Presumably the phenomenon is intelligence, which, by one of many definitions is...(a)The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
Blue, you and I both know that common definitions, in general, are no good for a scientific debate. This is one of the reasons I am asking Sin to define his terms.
My definitions of intelligence, tho more restrictive than yours, is no where near rigorous enough for the purposes of this debate.
When Sin finally gets around to providing his definitions, I will address the topic further.
And would most agree that spiders can't learn from experience?
If spiders did not learn from experience, evolution would not occur. And I did not suggest that spiders don't learn.
So. Spiders learn from experience. But. As Jar has pointed out, when a hardwired instinct is challenged (by lack of gravity), they do not adapt. They carry out their program.
What I meant by us being in the same system is the overall "system" of having evolved intelligence in order to deal with our environment.
Then you need to tell me what you mean by system.
Presumably a neurobiological system, yes?
So. What is it?
There's a species of spider that makes beautiful webs in my garden. Sometimes they'll keep a web going for days, repairing minor damage. When there's too much damage, they'll abandon the web, and make another one. Every web is different, as they're all hung between different plants/trees, and all damage is different, so their instincts have to provide them with the ability to do damage assessment in each individual case, and decide whether the web is worth repairing, or whether it's time to move on.
How does this show intelligence?
It sounds like you're ringing the "all webs are not identical" bell.
Again. I have not said that all webs are identical.
Much as the language instinct allows any child to learn any language, the web instinct allows any spider to repair any damage.
We can see them as entirely instinctive creatures with instinctive behaviour that gives an impression of intelligence, but on a much grander scale, we could see ourselves in the same way.
Forgive me, Blue, but your argument is beginning to sound like those cranks who claim to have discovered a new law in physics thru sheer ignorance of the processes involved.
Let's start by defining "the system". If you can find some supporting evidence that there is a shared neurobiological structure, then we can begin to discuss this issue.
You do realize, of course, that you are suggesting that every animal on this planet, vertebrate and invertebrate, shares a common neurobiological system?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by bluegenes, posted 01-06-2008 7:45 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
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sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 55 of 147 (446550)
01-06-2008 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by molbiogirl
01-06-2008 3:23 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
Molbiogirl, I think you have become stuck and are trying to save face, but I can give you the benefit of the doubt.
We could each submit a post detailing our reasons for who we think is responsible for giving a definition of instinct and intelligence in this topic.
Then we can request an administrator kindly step in and adjudicate. Game?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 3:23 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 4:06 PM sinequanon has not replied
 Message 57 by AdminNWR, posted 01-06-2008 4:11 PM sinequanon has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 56 of 147 (446556)
01-06-2008 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 3:53 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
We could each submit a post detailing our reasons for who we think is responsible for giving a definition of instinct and intelligence in this topic.
I have already offered a definition of instinct.
I will respond to your definition of intelligence once you've posted it.
Then we can request an administrator kindly step in and adjudicate.
Not gonna happen.
I await your definitions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 3:53 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 147 (446562)
01-06-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 3:53 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
Then we can request an administrator kindly step in and adjudicate.
What's to adjudicate?
Yes, you and molbiogirl are at an impasse. Successful discussion requires some give and take.
It's your thread. If you want further discussion with molbiogirl, then it is up to you to re-establish discussion. Alternatively, you can continue without such further discussion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 3:53 PM sinequanon has replied

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sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 58 of 147 (446573)
01-06-2008 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by AdminNWR
01-06-2008 4:11 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
What's to adjudicate?
Whether or not I need to define 'instinct' and 'intelligence'.
Basically, I am arguing that because human behaviour is called 'intelligent' (whatever it means) we must also call spider behaviour 'intelligent', because I believe there is no intrinsic difference in our behaviours. My position does not rely on any specific definition of intelligence.
If someone proposes that there are separate types of behaviour called 'instinctive' and 'intelligent' behaviours, it is up to them, rather than me, to define those behaviours and give support for the distinction.
Yes, you and molbiogirl are at an impasse. Successful discussion requires some give and take.
My best shot was adjudication, which I thought was fair.
It's your thread. If you want further discussion with molbiogirl, then it is up to you to re-establish discussion. Alternatively, you can continue without such further discussion.
Molbiogirl has rejected adjudication so we will have to continue without further discussion.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 59 of 147 (446587)
01-06-2008 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 4:35 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
Molbiogirl has rejected adjudication so we will have to continue without further discussion.
Wrong.
Adjudication is not the role of the moderators here.
You have seen fit to avoid defining the ideas you introduced.
I am arguing that because human behaviour is called 'intelligent' (whatever it means)...
What debate can be had if one refuses to address a foundational issue?
It's not surprising that you've chosen to avoid a definition, however. Happens all the time on this board.
Turn tail and run, Sin. It's a well-established creo tradition here at EvC.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 147 (446591)
01-06-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by molbiogirl
01-06-2008 5:09 PM


Maybe towards a distinction
One characteristic that might be useful is the role of intelligence in doing things a different way. Many animals such as the primates, whales and octopus have show the ability to solve problems in unique ways. Whether we are talking about bonobos using rocks to open nuts, octopus learning to open jars to get food, chimps modifying and using sticks to 'fish' for termites and ants or humans building refrigeration and heating systems, we see new, uniques solutions being displayed.
My question would be "What new and unique solutions to new problems have spiders developed?" Are there similar examples of 'problem solving' among individual spiders?
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
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