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Author Topic:   Spiders are intelligent
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 76 of 147 (446617)
01-06-2008 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nwr
01-06-2008 6:14 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
The other alternative is for you to stake out your own position, describe it carefully and give reasons for it, but not be concerned about whether people agree with you. To an extent, you have done that, except you have not given very good reasons.
This was my intention.
Your mistake is to want people to agree with you. I suggest you concentrate on giving good reasons, maybe examples of things that people think of as intelligent and why those are not importantly different from what is done instinctively. And expect disagreement.
I am not concerned about people agreeing with me, as you mentioned above.
I need people to supply the examples of what they think of as instinct and intelligent. (The point is I don't know when these terms are supposed to apply, as I see no distinction.) Then I can give reasons why I think they are not different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 01-06-2008 6:14 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by nwr, posted 01-06-2008 6:43 PM sinequanon has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 77 of 147 (446619)
01-06-2008 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by molbiogirl
01-06-2008 6:19 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
But something I have observed is that spiders make use of windows and mirrors (like car wing mirrors) to build their webs, improving the chance that a bug would blunder.
This is ridiculous, Sin. You can't read a spider's mind.
The use of windows and mirrors would not necessarily increase the likelihood of bugs getting caught in the net.
What has likely evolved is a penchant for building webs across open spaces - as windows and mirrors would appear to be to a spider and many bugs.
That doesn't make it intelligent, especially when the windows and mirrors are cleaned regularly.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 6:19 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:41 PM RAZD has replied
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 78 of 147 (446621)
01-06-2008 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:12 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
sinequanon writes:
But something I have observed is that spiders make use of windows and mirrors (like car wing mirrors) to build their webs, improving the chance that a bug would blunder.
I noticed that very thing but considering the fact that they are blown off car wing mirrors not long after I hit the interstate, such a strategy may be to increase the geographic distribution of their genes rather than success at catching food.
That is, if the spiders have really thought out the consequences of their actions that their presumed intelligence supposedly allows.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 79 of 147 (446623)
01-06-2008 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by molbiogirl
01-06-2008 6:19 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
This is ridiculous, Sin. You can't read a spider's mind.
I don't mention 'mind', but it is interesting that you do.
I just mention behaviour, and result (more bugs caught).
Thanks for the link. I'll do some investigation once I figure out the navigation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 6:19 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 6:37 PM sinequanon has not replied
 Message 84 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 6:42 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 80 of 147 (446624)
01-06-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by bluegenes
01-06-2008 6:21 PM


Rather, you seem to be implying that only one kind of neurobiological system could produce something that could be described as intelligence. There's no reason why a completely different biological system on another planet couldn't produce intelligent creatures.
Blue, shame on you. A strawman?
The system is biological evolution, and intelligence is a characteristic that could be advantageous.
That's a cop out.
Evolution only acts on phenotypes. Which means you need to offer a neurobiological explanation of spider intelligence.
Again. What is the system you are talking about? If it's convergent evolution, then find and present the evidence.
Is there a standard scientific definition of intelligence? You seem to want to make the definition of intelligence as narrow as possible.
Again. I have not posted a scientifically rigorous definition of intelligence because I am waiting on Sin to do so.
What definitions I have offered are just to move our conversation along.
Essentially, the discussion ends up with definitions, which is why I said in an earlier post that the statement in the thread title "Spiders are intelligent" is neither true nor false. It's relative.
Blue. Please do a pubmed search and find support for this assertion.
I've been googling around for a scientific definition of intelligence, but no luck so far. Can you help?
Have your tried Google Scholar?
Or pubmed? PubMed.
Not having that level of extraordinary adaptive ability doesn't mean they have none.
Then please find evidence that supports your assertion.
One anecdotal account of "taming" a tarantula simply will not do.
Intelligence is certainly something that could be produced by convergent evolution. Within mammals, if we traced our own lineage back to the point of divergence with that of the dolphins, I doubt if we would credit the common ancestor with anything like the level of intelligence of either descendant.
Then it should be easy for your to find the relevant scientific literature.
What's the strict, tight, generally accepted, consensus scientific definition of intelligence, then, because if there is one, you'd certainly have a strong argument that it should be used on this thread, because we're in "Science Forums".
I know. But Sin does not seem to want to follow Forum Guidelines in this regard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by bluegenes, posted 01-06-2008 6:21 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by bluegenes, posted 01-06-2008 10:37 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 147 (446625)
01-06-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by anglagard
01-06-2008 6:29 PM


Smoke and mirrors.
I am not convinced that decreasing the exposed capture area of a web by at least 50% is actually that good an example of innovation anyway.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by anglagard, posted 01-06-2008 6:29 PM anglagard has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 82 of 147 (446626)
01-06-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:32 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
I just mention behaviour, and result (more bugs caught).
Interesting. Please. Share with us your data (# of bugs caught in webs built on mirrors v. # of bugs caught in webs built elsewhere).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:32 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 83 of 147 (446627)
01-06-2008 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by RAZD
01-06-2008 6:27 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
The use of windows and mirrors would not necessarily increase the likelihood of bugs getting caught in the net.
What has likely evolved is a penchant for building webs across open spaces - as windows and mirrors would appear to be to a spider and many bugs.
That doesn't make it intelligent, especially when the windows and mirrors are cleaned regularly.
Matter of opinion, but I don't find your argument coherent. If it's about open spaces then bugs also fly into open spaces, hence more bugs.
Perhaps you intended to say that the spider can't tell the difference between glass and open space, and so is only behaving as normal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 6:27 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 8:43 PM sinequanon has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 84 of 147 (446628)
01-06-2008 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:32 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
Sin, a question has been raised re: the nature of your adjudication request.
nwr in Moderation Thread writes:
I took him as asking an admin to adjudicate on whether he was required to define "intelligence."
Were you asking:
1. Whether you were required to provide a definition?
2. Whether an admin would be willing to judge our proffered definitions?
Since you ended your request for adjudication with "Game?", I assumed the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:32 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 85 of 147 (446629)
01-06-2008 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:26 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
I need people to supply the examples of what they think of as instinct and intelligent.
Then ask people to provide examples.
I will give you one, though others might find it controversial. I see intelligence in nest building by birds. This is often taken as instinctual. My view is that the birds have an instinctual drive to build a nest. But they have to build it with materials that happen to be available in the local region, and that takes some learning in the sense of trial and error experimentation. Perhaps not a lot of intelligence, but I think there is some.
I don't see an equivalent with spiders. They build their web with material generated by their own biology, so don't have to learn to cope with a variety of different materials.
Your turn.

Let's end the political smears

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:26 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 7:05 PM nwr has replied

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 86 of 147 (446633)
01-06-2008 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by nwr
01-06-2008 6:43 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
They do have different spinnerets, which I understand produce ten odd different types of silk. But as you say the materials are from a fixed set. I think the point here is finding capability for ad hoc solutions.
The geometry in which the web fits varies and the repair work varies. Damage to the web, cutting free and moving bugs (to feast on in a more sheltered position), cutting out debris etc. require ad hoc solutions. Remember the web is sticky, which makes the operations more difficult.
The link in Message 48 was interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by nwr, posted 01-06-2008 6:43 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by nwr, posted 01-06-2008 7:19 PM sinequanon has replied

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 87 of 147 (446635)
01-06-2008 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by RAZD
01-06-2008 6:27 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
The use of windows and mirrors would not necessarily increase the likelihood of bugs getting caught in the net.
I don't know about you, but when I observe a fly in a room it spends much more time buzzing against the window than it does against a wall. If I want to swat the fly, I stand by the window.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 88 of 147 (446636)
01-06-2008 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 7:05 PM


Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
The way I look at it is this.
Designing a robotic spider (a robot that could build a web) looks a lot easier than building a robotic bird (a robot that could build a bird nest). The robotic spider has a relatively simple job, that I think is within range of what we can automate. The task for the robotic bird is far harder, and at the least would require some pretty complicated heuristics to:
  • recognize and evaluate local material that could be used in the nest;
  • learn how to put that material together, in a way that it holds its shape
    Incidently, there are researchers working in what is called "artificial life" where they do try to build robotic versions of insects and other simpler creatures. You can probably google it, or google "Rodney Brooks".

    Let's end the political smears

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 86 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 7:05 PM sinequanon has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 89 of 147 (446637)
    01-06-2008 7:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 87 by sinequanon
    01-06-2008 7:12 PM


    Windows and mirrors.
    But when you build a web against a solid object you immediately reduce the exposure by more than 50% (only one side exposed and one direction of approach totally cut off), plus you have not show how a mirror would compare to a window other than both being solid objects.

    Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 7:12 PM sinequanon has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 91 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 7:46 PM jar has replied

      
    sinequanon
    Member (Idle past 2864 days)
    Posts: 331
    Joined: 12-17-2007


    Message 90 of 147 (446638)
    01-06-2008 7:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 88 by nwr
    01-06-2008 7:19 PM


    Re: Going to answer my question any time soon?
    Of the activities we, as humans, tend to notice, I have little doubt that there are substantial differences in the capability of a spider and a bird. A robot would only attempt to replicate actions we recognise and not the stuff that is totally alien to us. For example, mating dances and chemical signalling. We probably don't even have any idea of the complexity of these.
    It's not that long ago when bird song was considered to be 'bird-brained' creatures spasmodically and aimlessly tweeting. Then we discovered that we can't even hear half the stuff that they can. We started to understand how complex their calls, communications and mimicry are, etc.
    A robot spider would have to do so much, I doubt anybody is anywhere near making one. It would have to be able to spin a web in a random geometry; be able to eat the web in the correct order, so that it doesn't collapse around the spider; parachute; maintain the web and a host of other things including mating rituals.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
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