Spiders are intelligent

Thanks for the link, jar. This is a much more authoritative account of the experiment than the one I recall.So, it appears that the spiders adapted immediately. It would be interesting to see the full article and any comments on how functional the webs were.

Different interpretations of the same article stub!They changed. The webs were different, so, unless you are able to predict the changes in angle and spiralling, I do not think it is valid to claim "they simply continued doing what they had always done".The question in my mind is, "were the adaptations beneficial?". Comments on the functionality of the web would be necessary to assess that.

Molbiogirl, I think you have become stuck and are trying to save face, but I can give you the benefit of the doubt.We could each submit a post detailing our reasons for who we think is responsible for giving a definition of instinct and intelligence in this topic.Then we can request an administrator kindly step in and adjudicate. Game?

Whether or not I need to define 'instinct' and 'intelligence'.Basically, I am arguing that because human behaviour is called 'intelligent' (whatever it means) we must also call spider behaviour 'intelligent', because I believe there is no intrinsic difference in our behaviours. My position does not rely on any specific definition of intelligence.If someone proposes that there are separate types of behaviour called 'instinctive' and 'intelligent' behaviours, it is up to them, rather than me, to define those behaviours and give support for the distinction. My best shot was adjudication, which I thought was fair. Molbiogirl has rejected adjudication so we will have to continue without further discussion.

What do you mean by unique? Using rocks to open things I wouldn't have thought was unique to any particular mammal. A crow or gull, for example, would repeatedly drop from a height small shellfish and molluscs onto rocks, in order to break the shell.Then there is the factor of environmental pressure. Why should a spider choose to change its web if it is doing the necessary job? And would we necessarily notice if it made changes to its mating dance?

And my question stands. What constitutes 'unique'?First, clarify the question you want answered.It is not clear from your example what sort of 'uniqueness' you are referring to. At best it looks like some fuzzy sort of 'impressiveness' factor.

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Cleverest crows opt for two tools

I don't have access to dedicated studies.But something I have observed is that spiders make use of windows and mirrors (like car wing mirrors) to build their webs, improving the chance that a bug would blunder.

This was my intention. I am not concerned about people agreeing with me, as you mentioned above.I need people to supply the examples of what they think of as instinct and intelligent. (The point is I don't know when these terms are supposed to apply, as I see no distinction.) Then I can give reasons why I think they are not different.

I don't mention 'mind', but it is interesting that you do.I just mention behaviour, and result (more bugs caught).Thanks for the link. I'll do some investigation once I figure out the navigation.

Matter of opinion, but I don't find your argument coherent. If it's about open spaces then bugs also fly into open spaces, hence more bugs.Perhaps you intended to say that the spider can't tell the difference between glass and open space, and so is only behaving as normal?

They do have different spinnerets, which I understand produce ten odd different types of silk. But as you say the materials are from a fixed set. I think the point here is finding capability for ad hoc solutions.The geometry in which the web fits varies and the repair work varies. Damage to the web, cutting free and moving bugs (to feast on in a more sheltered position), cutting out debris etc. require ad hoc solutions. Remember the web is sticky, which makes the operations more difficult.The link in Message 48 was interesting.

I don't know about you, but when I observe a fly in a room it spends much more time buzzing against the window than it does against a wall. If I want to swat the fly, I stand by the window.

Of the activities we, as humans, tend to notice, I have little doubt that there are substantial differences in the capability of a spider and a bird. A robot would only attempt to replicate actions we recognise and not the stuff that is totally alien to us. For example, mating dances and chemical signalling. We probably don't even have any idea of the complexity of these.It's not that long ago when bird song was considered to be 'bird-brained' creatures spasmodically and aimlessly tweeting. Then we discovered that we can't even hear half the stuff that they can. We started to understand how complex their calls, communications and mimicry are, etc.A robot spider would have to do so much, I doubt anybody is anywhere near making one. It would have to be able to spin a web in a random geometry; be able to eat the web in the correct order, so that it doesn't collapse around the spider; parachute; maintain the web and a host of other things including mating rituals.

I study the spiders on the large windows (typically a metre square) round my house. A bug would spend 5 minutes uncontrollably bombarding the window until it blunders into the small web in the corner. The effect of 50 per cent reduction pales in comparison.Bugs blunder into mirrors in a similar way.