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Author Topic:   Spiders are intelligent
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 64 of 147 (446601)
01-06-2008 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 5:43 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
Using rocks to open things I wouldn't have thought was unique to any particular mammal. A crow or gull, for example, would repeatedly drop from a height small shellfish and molluscs onto rocks, in order to break the shell.
Have you any evidence of gulls/crows using new techniques in response to new situations?
Have you any evidence of spiders using new techniques in response to new situations?
For example:
A case report of a novel type of stick use by wild chimpanzees
Primates
Volume 44, Number 2 / April, 2003
Or this:
Tool use previous as environmental enrichment for previous captive chimpanzees
Applied Animal Behaviour Science
Volume 81, Issue 2, 19 April 2003, Pages 171-182
Several behaviours emerged with the introduction of the task. Materials were used to fish for honey, similar to ant/termite fishing (Goodall, 1986), and to clean body parts, similar to the observed use of leaf-napkins to wipe dirt from the body ( Van Lawick-Goodall, 1968) or sticks to clear the nasal passage ( Nishida and Nakamura, 1993) in the wild.
Got anything to offer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 5:43 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:04 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 65 of 147 (446602)
01-06-2008 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 5:55 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
First, clarify the question you want answered.
It is not clear from your example what sort of 'uniqueness' you are referring to. At best it looks like some fuzzy sort of 'impressiveness' factor.
Quit stalling and answer the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 5:55 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 68 of 147 (446606)
01-06-2008 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
01-06-2008 6:00 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
The topic is "Spiders are intelligent".
You know, this is really frustrating.
In essence, Sin's position is this:
I would like to debate "spiders are intelligent".
I will not define spiders.
I will not define intelligent.
Discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 6:00 PM jar has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 69 of 147 (446607)
01-06-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:04 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
Fabulous.
Now. How about spiders?
btw.
Don't post bare links.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:04 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 74 of 147 (446614)
01-06-2008 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:12 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
I don't have access to dedicated studies.
Yes, you do.
Pubmed can be used by anyone:
PubMed
Should you find a study that supports your position, I would be happy to take a look at the paper.
But something I have observed is that spiders make use of windows and mirrors (like car wing mirrors) to build their webs, improving the chance that a bug would blunder.
This is ridiculous, Sin. You can't read a spider's mind.
Provide support for your contention that a spider can use new techniques in response to a new problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:12 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 6:27 PM molbiogirl has not replied
 Message 79 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:32 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 80 of 147 (446624)
01-06-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by bluegenes
01-06-2008 6:21 PM


Rather, you seem to be implying that only one kind of neurobiological system could produce something that could be described as intelligence. There's no reason why a completely different biological system on another planet couldn't produce intelligent creatures.
Blue, shame on you. A strawman?
The system is biological evolution, and intelligence is a characteristic that could be advantageous.
That's a cop out.
Evolution only acts on phenotypes. Which means you need to offer a neurobiological explanation of spider intelligence.
Again. What is the system you are talking about? If it's convergent evolution, then find and present the evidence.
Is there a standard scientific definition of intelligence? You seem to want to make the definition of intelligence as narrow as possible.
Again. I have not posted a scientifically rigorous definition of intelligence because I am waiting on Sin to do so.
What definitions I have offered are just to move our conversation along.
Essentially, the discussion ends up with definitions, which is why I said in an earlier post that the statement in the thread title "Spiders are intelligent" is neither true nor false. It's relative.
Blue. Please do a pubmed search and find support for this assertion.
I've been googling around for a scientific definition of intelligence, but no luck so far. Can you help?
Have your tried Google Scholar?
Or pubmed? PubMed.
Not having that level of extraordinary adaptive ability doesn't mean they have none.
Then please find evidence that supports your assertion.
One anecdotal account of "taming" a tarantula simply will not do.
Intelligence is certainly something that could be produced by convergent evolution. Within mammals, if we traced our own lineage back to the point of divergence with that of the dolphins, I doubt if we would credit the common ancestor with anything like the level of intelligence of either descendant.
Then it should be easy for your to find the relevant scientific literature.
What's the strict, tight, generally accepted, consensus scientific definition of intelligence, then, because if there is one, you'd certainly have a strong argument that it should be used on this thread, because we're in "Science Forums".
I know. But Sin does not seem to want to follow Forum Guidelines in this regard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by bluegenes, posted 01-06-2008 6:21 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by bluegenes, posted 01-06-2008 10:37 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 82 of 147 (446626)
01-06-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:32 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
I just mention behaviour, and result (more bugs caught).
Interesting. Please. Share with us your data (# of bugs caught in webs built on mirrors v. # of bugs caught in webs built elsewhere).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:32 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 84 of 147 (446628)
01-06-2008 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 6:32 PM


Re: Maybe towards a distinction
Sin, a question has been raised re: the nature of your adjudication request.
nwr in Moderation Thread writes:
I took him as asking an admin to adjudicate on whether he was required to define "intelligence."
Were you asking:
1. Whether you were required to provide a definition?
2. Whether an admin would be willing to judge our proffered definitions?
Since you ended your request for adjudication with "Game?", I assumed the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 6:32 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 96 of 147 (446661)
01-06-2008 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 7:36 PM


Look. A spider's brain is smaller than the head of a pin.
Limits of scale place a ceiling on how flexible an animal's behavior can become, because smaller animals have fewer, not smaller, neurons.
Fewer components for a brain means that fewer neurons are available for sensory organs, problem-solving mechanisms, and cognitive/behavioral flexibility. This is a fundamental engineering problem. It limits how complex or flexible those systems can become.
A robot spider would have to do so much, I doubt anybody is anywhere near making one.
Wrong.
The web-building behaviour of orb-web-building spiders provides an excellent example of an organism solving a complex task of spatial orientation by the iterated application of simple local behaviour patterns. Thus, one can model the garden cross spider Araneus diadematus as a virtual ”spider robot’ in order to explore and modify the spatial world of digitized spider webs. Such an approach shows that a small number of very simple behaviour patterns are sufficient to generate accurately the characteristics of a real spiderweb.
Spiders’ webs
Current Biology, Volume 15, Issue 10, Pages R364-R365
This paper is concerned with the walking behavior strategy of a spider-robot for the realization of walking of, e.g. creatural spiders. A creatural spider responds to environmental information by adapting various walking forms, in the cases of escaping from natural enemies or fear, being chased and so on. This research uses fuzzy theory and neural networks. The mechanism of these walking behaviors is examined and verified through simulation and experiment.
Walking behavior of spider-robot with adaptation for environment information
SICE 2004 Annual Conference
Volume 3, p. 1999-2003
It would have to be able to spin a web in a random geometry...
Wrong. The geometry is not random.
Web and behavior are so closely linked that it is possible to deconstruct the web structure not only to provide a continuous record of the visible steps taken by the spider but also to infer from this visible record the underlying and hidden rules that are guiding these steps (Eberhard 1969;Gotts & Vollrath 1992;Krink & Vollrath 1997, 1998, 1999). A prerequisite for a successful behavioral dissection is a very good understanding of both, web engineering and spider activity (Eberhard 1981, 1986, 1988a,b; Heiling & Herberstein 1998;Herberstein & Heiling 1999;Vollrath 1987, 1988, 1992a; Vollrath et al. 1997). Fortunately, the modern techniques of filming and movement analysis are making this increasingly easy (Benjamin & Zschokke 2002, 2003; Zschokke & Vollrath 1999a) and accessible to modern simulation and modeling tools (Gotts & Vollrath 1992;Krink & Vollrath 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000).
Web architecture is principally static with a semipermanent geometry, although its functional engineering is dynamic (Lin et al. 1995).
The typical orb web consists of a flat wheel of stiff radial threads overlaid by a spiral of elastic and sticky threads suspended freely in vegetation from a few guy lines. Radials and spiral often show distinct asymmetries in shape and spacing typically associated with a vertical orientation of the web and constituting a fine-tuning to maximize prey capture (Vollrath et al. 1997). In order to orient in the web, the spider uses vibrations but also the direction of illumination, which, together with gravity provides a general compass direction (Vollrath 1992). In addition to hand-railing along existing threads and orienting by a set of rather simple decision rules (Krink & Vollrath 1999), some orb weavers also navigate using idiothetic path integration (Vollrath et al. 2000).
The Role of Behavior in the Evolution of Spiders, Silks, and Webs
Annual Review of Ecology, Evolution, and Systematics
December 2007, Vol. 38, Pages 819-846
For example, mating dances and chemical signalling. We probably don't even have any idea of the complexity of these.
Wrong.
Chemical Signaling in a Wolf Spider: A Test of Ethospecies Discrimination
Journal of Chemical Ecology
Volume 30, Number 6 / June, 2004
There are over 5000 papers on chemical signalling.
An Analysis of Alternative Mating Tactics of the Jumping Spider Phidippus johnsoni (Araneae, Salticidae)
Journal of Arachnology, Vol. 5, No. 3 (Autumn, 1977), pp. 185-230
There are over 4000 papers on courtship behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 7:36 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by AdminPD, posted 01-07-2008 5:32 AM molbiogirl has not replied
 Message 107 by sinequanon, posted 01-07-2008 6:29 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 97 of 147 (446664)
01-06-2008 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by sinequanon
01-06-2008 8:06 PM


Re: Windows and mirrors.
If I can find one I will.
Are you going to look anytime soon? Or are you going to continue with your armchair biology?
I just researched my latest answer in all of 15 minutes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by sinequanon, posted 01-06-2008 8:06 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 99 of 147 (446691)
01-06-2008 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by bluegenes
01-06-2008 10:37 PM


I certainly never suggested that. But they're all part of the same DNA based life system. When you say that spiders are "hard wired" to be what they are and to do what they do, I agree. I just think that we are genetically hard wired as well.
Look. I asked for you to support your assertions.
I gave you two sites where you can do your research.
Define "the system".
Provide evidence of this system in spiders.
Provide evidence of convergent evolution of this system.
Provide evidence of hard wiring.
Provide evidence that intelligence is relative.
Provide evidence of the adaptability of spiders.
I have asked for each of these before. Please stop avoiding the questions.
As for asking me to search for scientific papers to back up my comments on language and the word intelligence, I'm waiting for your scientific definition of intelligence.
You know what? I'm holding out despite Sin's refusal to cough up a definition. I still have hope that another Admin will point out that in a science thread, Sin has a responsibility to define intelligence. The name of the topic is "Spiders are intelligent" for pete's sake.
I gave one of the common definitions of intelligence:
"The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge."
You don't need scientific papers to fit spiders to that, any more than you need scientific papers to know that they've got eight legs, so if this were a coffee house thread instead of a science thread, I'd have a good case.
Come on, Blue. You know perfectly well that a dictionary definition is not sufficient.
Why on god's green earth would we bother with neuroscience and evolutionary biology if we could just pluck a definition from Webster's and go, "Yup. Spiders fit."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by bluegenes, posted 01-06-2008 10:37 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 12:06 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 101 of 147 (446716)
01-07-2008 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by bluegenes
01-07-2008 12:06 AM


The Intelligence of the American Turret Spider ... 1883
Oh for feck's sake, Blue. 1883?
I think that if someone wanted to claim that an animal with a brain that exhibits complex behaviour has no intelligence, then that would be the assertion that requires support.
Did you look at Message 96?
(I agree with you that sine should offer definitions).
Well, perhaps an Admin pop in tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 12:06 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 12:50 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 103 of 147 (446743)
01-07-2008 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by bluegenes
01-07-2008 12:50 AM


Yes. But notice that I'm not using their basic web building instincts as an example of flexible behaviour, but rather their ability to identify unpredictable damage and repair it.
I'm not sure why this is a problem. Damage is just a break in the strand (or some such). Why wouldn't the weaving "program" not suffice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 12:50 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 1:39 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 105 of 147 (446753)
01-07-2008 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by bluegenes
01-07-2008 1:39 AM


In a way, I agree that it's part of the program, but it appears that the spiders are programmed to improvise what appear to be intelligent solutions, and this raises the question of whether or not a bit of "intelligence" has been included in the program.
We must be talking past one another.
To build the web, spiders use gravity and the direction of light. To repair the web they do the same thing.
I read the link. No surprises there. Damage repair is identical to web building.
How is it different? How is doing a second time what they did the first time improvisation?
Edited by molbiogirl, : sp

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 1:39 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 8:00 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 108 of 147 (446770)
01-07-2008 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by sinequanon
01-07-2008 6:29 AM


Nobody knows how cognition works let alone any method of quantifying it.
This is OT, so I will be brief.
Much is known about the neural basis of certain cognitive processes. This is especially true of perception and memory. Neocortical sensory systems are sequentially organized networks involving a primary receiving area, which receives the major topographically organized inputs from thalamic regions, and parallel streams of association areas, each of which can also be organized in terms of sequential processing stations.
However, when someone can put a spider in a box and get a computer to predict the next web precisely, perhaps you would supply a link to the details.
Why on earth is it necessary to predict one particular web? Spiders don't spin the exact same web over and over again.
I said IN a randon (sic) geometry, not WITH a random geometry.
What is the difference?
You can do the same with humans.
What on earth are you talking about?
What was your exact search criteria by the way?
Chemical signalling spiders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by sinequanon, posted 01-07-2008 6:29 AM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by sinequanon, posted 01-07-2008 7:16 AM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 111 by nwr, posted 01-07-2008 8:39 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
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