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Author Topic:   Why There Are Two Sexes
miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 31 of 63 (446719)
01-07-2008 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by miosim
01-06-2008 11:55 PM


molbiogirl,
Did you see Fig.1 on DNA Asymmetric Gene Activity
... where only one DNA molecule (say a single chromosome) is shown? Each of shown genes (three total) is unique.

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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2668 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 32 of 63 (446726)
01-07-2008 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by miosim
01-07-2008 12:21 AM


... where only one DNA molecule (say a single chromosome) is shown? Each of shown genes (three total) is unique.
I've taken a look and I repeat:
When one inherits a copy of an A allele and a copy of a B allele, then one is AB.
If your model were true, then one would be either A or B. Not AB.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 12:51 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2668 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 33 of 63 (446737)
01-07-2008 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by miosim
01-07-2008 12:21 AM


I just thought of something else.
If your model were true, in the second round of replication, one would have two diploid sets with 2 nonfunctional strands (and 2 sets with 1 functional, 1 nonfunctional).

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miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 34 of 63 (446738)
01-07-2008 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by molbiogirl
01-07-2008 12:31 AM


To avoid confusion lets use a simplest scenario: a single diploid cell having one chromosome in its haploid set. Each chromosome, according to model, is of one possible type: matriarchal or patriarchal (see mechanism of cell differentiatiation, page 6). According to model, the distribution of parental chromosomes to daughter cells may lead to any of the following scenarios:
1. Only one allele of particular gene is expressed. (if both chromosomes are of opposite type).
2. Both alleles are expressed. (if both chromosome are of the same type and this particular allele are on the active DNA strands).
3. Both alleles are blocked. (if both chromosome are of the same type but this alleles are on the blocked DNA strands).
Edited by miosim, : No reason given.

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 Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 01-07-2008 12:31 AM molbiogirl has replied

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2668 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 35 of 63 (446744)
01-07-2008 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by miosim
01-07-2008 12:51 AM


1. Only one allele of particular gene is expressed. (if both chromosomes are of opposite type).
2. Both alleles are expressed. (if both chromosome are of the same type and this particular allele are on the active DNA strands).
3. Both alleles are blocked. (if both chromosome are of the same type but this alleles are on the blocked DNA strands).
M, I know you aren't intentionally ignoring what I've posted.
Listen carefully.
If one inherits an A and a B, then one is AB.
If your model were true:
Condition 1 = either A or B.
Condition 3 = neither A or B (meaning that person would not have a blood type!)
Do you understand?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 1:55 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 36 of 63 (446749)
01-07-2008 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by molbiogirl
01-07-2008 1:18 AM


If your model were true:
Condition 1 = either A or B.
Condition 3 = neither A or B (meaning that person would not have a blood type!)
Do you understand?
I do.
I don't worry that model allows condition 3 (person would not have a blood type!) as long as model doesn't require this condition. Actually Condition 3 should play a crucial role in the cell differentiation mechanism. Thanks to this condition A/B genes are blocked completely in the non blood cells, neuron for example
Edited by miosim, : No reason given.
Edited by miosim, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by molbiogirl, posted 01-07-2008 1:18 AM molbiogirl has replied

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2668 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 37 of 63 (446752)
01-07-2008 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by miosim
01-07-2008 1:55 AM


don't worry that model allows condition 3 (person would not have a blood type!) as long as it not require this condition.
I don't know what you mean. What is "it" referring to? What "condition"?
Everyone has a blood type.
An erythrocyte with no blood type antigens is unheard of.
People with an A and a B express as AB.
They do not express as A. They do not express as B.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 2:23 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 38 of 63 (446754)
01-07-2008 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by molbiogirl
01-07-2008 2:07 AM


One of the problems in our communication is that you are focusing on organism and I am focusing on individual cells. Lets keep it simple and finish with individual cell first. So, for individual cell the complete blockage of A/B genes or even 50% of all genes not a problem, but mechanism by with cell differentiation occurs.
For blood cells, both A and B alleles must be engaged, so according to my model, blood cells allays have the same type of appropriate chromosomes with A and B alleles located on the active DNA strands.
Edited by miosim, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2668 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 39 of 63 (446755)
01-07-2008 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by miosim
01-07-2008 2:23 AM


One of the problems in our communication is that you are focusing on organism and I am focusing on individual cells.
An erythrocyte is an individual cell. Erythrocyte: the red blood CELL that carries oxygen to body cells and carbon dioxide away from body cells.
So, for individual cell the complete blockage of A/B genes or even 50% of all genes not a problem, but mechanism by with cell differentiation occurs.
Yes, it does!
ABE:
Hematopoietic stem cells give rise to all types of blood cells. Red, white, etc.
When erythrocytes (red blood cells) differentiate, they express blood type antigens. Your model says that it is possible for an erythrocyte to have no antigens. This is impossible.
Edited by molbiogirl, : addn

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Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 2:57 AM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 42 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 3:15 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 40 of 63 (446756)
01-07-2008 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by molbiogirl
01-07-2008 2:25 AM


When erythrocytes (red blood cells) differentiate, they express blood type antigens. Your model says that it is possible for an erythrocyte to have no antigens. This is impossible.
Agree.
But my model also predicts a possibility that some cell may receive incorrect set of chromosome type (I mean patriarchal and matriarchal types) that would probably will cause cell death. But this is abnormalities. Normally blood cell receives the correct type of chromosome, so AB phenotype is properly expressed. How cells maintain the correct distribution of patriarchal and matriarchal types of chromosome during cell division, I speculate on page 9 (linkages). But this just a general model that not intended to explain all intricate details of cell differentiation.

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 Message 39 by molbiogirl, posted 01-07-2008 2:25 AM molbiogirl has replied

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2668 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 41 of 63 (446757)
01-07-2008 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by miosim
01-07-2008 2:57 AM


Normally blood cell receives the correct type of chromosome, so AB phenotype is properly expressed.
No.
I am using one of the simplest explanations I can think of and you still don't get it.
A hematopoietic stem cell replicates its DNA. It divides. According to your model, during differentiation, an AB cell can have one inactive strand. If it does then it will express as either A or B.
This is impossible.
Let's try another example.
From your paper:
The existence of two alleles of each gene, so at least one vital gene could be active.
How do you explain recessive phenotypes?
Just in case you don't know how dominant and recessive phenotypes work:
Each strand carries either a dominant or recessive allele. Let's call dominant S and recessive s.
If someone inherits SS = dominant phenotype.
If someone inherits Ss = dominant phenotype.
If someone inherits ss = recessive phenotype.
If one strand is inactive, the recessive phenotype is impossible.

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 Message 40 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 2:57 AM miosim has not replied

  
miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 42 of 63 (446758)
01-07-2008 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by molbiogirl
01-07-2008 2:25 AM


One more comments.
Normally blood cell receives the correct type of chromosome, so AB phenotype is properly expressed, but during cell proliferation only one daughter cell will properly expressed AB phenotype while another will have blood type phenotype completely suppressed. This cells I called “inverted” type. they cannot differentiated (see page 7), but produce the correct cell only (by dividing). Existence of these “inverted” cell is the fundamental properties of the differentiation process described by this model.

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 Message 39 by molbiogirl, posted 01-07-2008 2:25 AM molbiogirl has replied

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 Message 44 by molbiogirl, posted 01-07-2008 3:44 AM miosim has replied

  
miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 43 of 63 (446759)
01-07-2008 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by miosim
01-07-2008 3:15 AM


A hematopoietic stem cell replicates its DNA. It divides. According to your model, during differentiation, an AB cell can have one inactive strand. If it does then it will express as either A or B.
This is impossible.
Lets do one step in a time.
According to my model, AB phenotype has only one scenario: both homologues chromosomes must be of the same type with the AB genes active. Now, if this cell divides it results in one daughter cell with AB genes active, and another “inverted” cell with completely blocked A or B genes. Is this “inverted” cell bothers you?
I am going to work on your next example while you are reading this.
Edited by miosim, : No reason given.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2668 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 44 of 63 (446761)
01-07-2008 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by miosim
01-07-2008 3:15 AM


one daughter cell will properly expressed AB phenotype while another will have blood type phenotype completely suppressed.
Please for the love of god listen to me.
Your model says when a cell divides, there is an active strand and an inactive strand.
From your paper:
In the DNA molecule the genes located on the newly synthesized strand are active and genes located on the complemented strand are blocked from transcription ... Two complementary DNA strands carry unequal amount of genetic information ... The diploid eukaryotic cell has two alleles of each gene, so if two homogenous chromosomes are of the opposite type, at least one allele will be active.
An AB phenotype is impossible using your model. Both sites must be transcribed.
There is no such thing as an AB allele. Got it? There is an A and a B. They are different versions of the SAME GENE. Understand? They have the same location on the chromosome. When the two chromosomes are lined up side by side, they are right next to each other. An A on one strand, a B on the other.
From your conclusion:
We demonstrated the theoretical model in which only one strand of DNA molecule is transcribed.
An AB blood type is impossible.

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 Message 42 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 3:15 AM miosim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by miosim, posted 01-07-2008 3:59 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
miosim
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 45 of 63 (446762)
01-07-2008 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by molbiogirl
01-07-2008 3:44 AM


While I am reading your post, you can read my.
Just one comment for now:
“Your model says when a cell divides; there is an active strand and an inactive strand.”
This is a diploid cell, that is has two chromosomes with active/ inactive strand: please include in your analysis a second chromosome also and its possible type.
Each strand carries either a dominant or recessive allele. Let's call dominant S and recessive s.
If someone inherits SS = dominant phenotype.
If someone inherits Ss = dominant phenotype.
If someone inherits ss = recessive phenotype.
If one strand is inactive, the recessive phenotype is impossible.
Not as I see it.
The model restricts the phenotype expression due to blocked DNA strand, but only in Haploid cell. Diploid cell is overcomes this restriction. In this cell any of four phenotypes could be expressed: A, B, AB or none.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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