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Author Topic:   scientific theories taught as factual
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 91 of 295 (446703)
01-06-2008 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
01-06-2008 11:20 PM


Re: differentiating between the observation and the theory
Hi Ringo,
Where's the barrier between Lucy and you?
Are you saying Lucy was human?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 01-06-2008 11:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 01-06-2008 11:59 PM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 295 (446709)
01-06-2008 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ICANT
01-06-2008 11:48 PM


Re: differentiating between the observation and the theory
ICANT writes:
quote:
Where's the barrier between Lucy and you?
Are you saying Lucy was human?
I'm asking you where's the barrier that prevents Lucy (or something like her) from becoming human after many generations.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2008 11:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2008 12:34 AM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 93 of 295 (446723)
01-07-2008 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by RAZD
01-06-2008 10:14 PM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
Hi RAZD,
If you are asking what religious or philosophical concept do I need to have to understand evolution,
The question I asked had nothing to do with religion or philosophical concepts.
I asked:
What is the source for the Universe and the first form of Life that you claim evolved.
I know your answer because you have given it to me before on a couple of occasions.
The answer being "We don't know"
Since I agree with your definition of micro-events and macro-events.
Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
Biological Process #2 is the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.
I don't see any difference in what you are saying or anyone else on this site and what I am saying except the method.
You say we got here by evolution. Which you cannot prove as there has never been a proven case of one creature becoming a different creature. You say with enough changes in 550 million years it could have happened.
How? When it took 3 billion years to get from single cell to big enough to see without a microscope.
I say God created the universe and everything in it. I believe things are evolving. I also believe humans are devolving in many ways and evolving in others.
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 10:14 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by arachnophilia, posted 01-07-2008 12:57 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2008 8:00 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 94 of 295 (446729)
01-07-2008 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
01-06-2008 11:59 PM


Re: differentiating between the observation and the theory
Hi Ringo,
I'm asking you where's the barrier that prevents Lucy (or something like her) from becoming human after many generations.
Are you saying that after many generations Lucy produced humans?
We were not talking about something like her.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 01-06-2008 11:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 01-07-2008 12:42 AM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 95 of 295 (446731)
01-07-2008 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by ICANT
01-07-2008 12:34 AM


Re: differentiating between the observation and the theory
ICANT writes:
Are you saying that after many generations Lucy produced humans?
We were not talking about something like her.
I don't know what the consensus is on whether or not Lucy is a direct ancestor of humans but it doesn't matter in the least. We are, in fact, talking about "something like her".
It doesn't make any difference whether Lucy is your great, great, great... grandmother or your great, great, great, great... aunt whose line became extinct. We're interested in the number of generations (all of which are transitional). And I've asked you repeatedly, where is the barrier that prevents a hominid contemporary to Lucy from micro-evolving into you?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2008 12:34 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 01-08-2008 1:27 AM ringo has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 96 of 295 (446740)
01-07-2008 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
01-07-2008 12:29 AM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
You say we got here by evolution. Which you cannot prove as there has never been a proven case of one creature becoming a different creature. You say with enough changes in 550 million years it could have happened.
you don't believe in speciation, which has been documented in laboratory settings?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2008 12:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2008 7:46 AM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 01-08-2008 1:37 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 97 of 295 (446778)
01-07-2008 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by arachnophilia
01-07-2008 12:57 AM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
you don't believe in speciation, which has been documented in laboratory settings?
He's not talking about speciation, but about the creationist myth of a fly becoming an elephant overnight.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by arachnophilia, posted 01-07-2008 12:57 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 98 of 295 (446782)
01-07-2008 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
01-07-2008 12:29 AM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
The question I asked had nothing to do with religion or philosophical concepts.
Then god cannot be your source. If god is your source then you are de facto talking religion and philosophy when you ask about sources.
No special pleading.
I know your answer because you have given it to me before on a couple of occasions.
The answer being "We don't know"
That is not the source but the question on the beginning of life. Source is a religious and philosophical consideration beyond the question of the beginning of life.
You say we got here by evolution. Which you cannot prove as there has never been a proven case of one creature becoming a different creature. You say with enough changes in 550 million years it could have happened.
55 million should enough, based on the evidence, but you do have to look at the question rationally.
Try your hand at dogs will be dogs will be .... Notice that in the first part you have to define what constitutes sufficient change to divide taxonometric categories, such as the difference between a common domestic cat and a red fox. The last creationist (Beretta) didn't get very far.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2008 12:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ICANT, posted 01-08-2008 2:08 AM RAZD has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 295 (446807)
01-07-2008 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by ICANT
01-06-2008 11:42 PM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
What mandates that there are enough small changes over millions of years to change a fish into a land animal.
Nothing mandates that. Evolution has no direction. However the conclusion based on the evidence is that that is what happened. Note it is a conclusion.
It took about 3 billion years from the first lifeform to get something you could see without a microscope. So how did we get from there to here today?
One small step at a time.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2008 11:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2008 7:02 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 100 of 295 (447011)
01-07-2008 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
01-07-2008 9:44 AM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
Hi jar,
One small step at a time.
Sorry jar with only 550 million years they had to be giant steps not small ones as there was not enough time for the small ones.
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 01-07-2008 9:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 01-07-2008 7:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 295 (447017)
01-07-2008 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ICANT
01-07-2008 7:02 PM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
Five hundred and fifty million years is a long time.
Now do you have anything related to the topic?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2008 7:02 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 102 of 295 (447088)
01-08-2008 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
01-07-2008 12:42 AM


Re: differentiating between the observation and the theory
Hi Ringo,
And I've asked you repeatedly, where is the barrier that prevents a hominid contemporary to Lucy from micro-evolving into you?
Since you are the one alluding to my descent from Lucy or a like life form: Why has it become my responsibility to prove that she, or it, is not?
Why don't you prove that they are my ancestors?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 01-07-2008 12:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by NosyNed, posted 01-08-2008 1:40 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 01-08-2008 1:42 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 137 by Kapyong, posted 01-08-2008 5:59 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 103 of 295 (447089)
01-08-2008 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by arachnophilia
01-07-2008 12:57 AM


Re: God on the lab table - evolution in the present day.
Hi arachnophilia,
you don't believe in speciation, which has been documented in laboratory settings?
Please read: Message 93
Have fun now

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by arachnophilia, posted 01-07-2008 12:57 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2008 11:13 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 104 of 295 (447090)
01-08-2008 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by ICANT
01-08-2008 1:27 AM


Hunting for the ancestors
Why don't you prove that they are my ancestors?
No one is going to "prove" that. It is however the very most reasonable conclusion to draw from the current evidence.
The evidence is three million years ago there were none of "us" around. There were however critters like Lucy who had some characteristics in common with us.
Since the evidence also show how we fit in very, very well with all modern life the mostest bestest conclusion is that we had someone around then as our great... great grandparents. We can judge from what evidence we do have now that some millions of years before Lucy there was nothing around that was as close to us in form.
Lucy is therefore the most reasonable candidate we have right now for a representative of those grandparents. There is absolutely nothing about her that precludes her as one. If you think there is you'll have to produce whatever it is that precludes her.
Not only do we have those characteristics that tie her to us but we have subsequent evidence that shows later forms that are closer yet to us. Since they had to have ancestors too Lucy is a good candidate to represent those ancestors. Those later forms, being yet more like us, are even better candidates to be not-quite-so-many-greats grandparents of us. Again there is nothing to preclude them from that role (and in fact less than Lucy).
Whatcha got? Anything other than you don't like the idea?
You weren't ask to prove that she is or isn't our ancestor. You were asked to show that she could not be. Whatcha got?
Edited by NosyNed, : add a bit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 01-08-2008 1:27 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 01-08-2008 2:24 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 105 of 295 (447092)
01-08-2008 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by ICANT
01-08-2008 1:27 AM


Re: differentiating between the observation and the theory
ICANT writes:
Since you are the one alluding to my descent from Lucy or a like life form: Why has it become my responsibility to prove that she, or it, is not?
You're the one who compared, in Message 73, evolving from a single-celled life form to walking to the moon. I pointed out that there's an obvious barrier to walking to the moon, two hundred thousand miles or so of empty space. I've just been asking you to back up your comparison by showing us an obvious barrier to evolution.
You're the one who brought up Lucy in Message 88. I don't care if you point out a barrier between the single-celled life form and Lucy or between Lucy and you. I'm just asking you to back up your comparison.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 01-08-2008 1:27 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ICANT, posted 01-08-2008 2:48 AM ringo has replied

  
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