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Junior Member (Idle past 6038 days) Posts: 3 From: Fargo, ND, United States Joined: |
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Author | Topic: scientific theories taught as factual | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi RAZD,
I marvel at the photography of 54 million years ago.
Would a horse be enough? Would you dispute that a horse is clearly not a dog? Beautiful 54 million year old picture of something. Have fun "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Ned,
No one is going to "prove" that. It is however the very most reasonable conclusion to draw from the current evidence. So it is reasonable to you because you want to believe that. I think it is just as reasonable that all things are related because God formed man and animals from the dust of the ground. So I choose to believe that. As of this moment I can not prove or disprove either. But if what I believe is correct there will come a time in the future that the answer will be made known to all. If I am incorrect what difference does it make? "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Ringo,
Would you please point out to me where I compared evolving from a single-celled life form to walking to the moon?
You're the one who compared, in Message 73, evolving from a single-celled life form to walking to the moon. Thanks in advance I did bring up Lucy.
You're the one who brought up Lucy in Message 88. I was adding a little more distance than you had put in your example.
Ringo writes: So what? We're following lines of ancestry here. If your grandmother didn't have any Polynesian descendents or Norwegian descendants, does that mean your father wasn't a transitional between her and you? Since I am not Polynesian or Norwegian why would my father have to be a transitional? Now if I were Polynesian or Norwegian he would definately have to be a transitional since neither of my grandparents were Polynesian or Norwegian and neither was my mother. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: Would you please point out to me where I compared evolving from a single-celled life form to walking to the moon? I already did point it out, and you even quoted me:
quote: Message 73:
quote: The subordinate clause, "that no one knows where it came from to get on the planet earth that no one knows where the singularity came from that birthed the planet earth came from is just as stupid to me", doesn't alter the fact that you're comparing evolution to walking to the moon. Leaving out the subordinate clause doesn't alter the meaning:
quote: Either you intended to make the comparison or you confused yourself with all that gibberish about the singularity. If you didn't mean to make the comparison, just say so and stop wasting my time.
Since I am not Polynesian or Norwegian why would my father have to be a transitional? That's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter what ethnicity your ancestors were any more than it matters whether Lucy was your direct ancestor. The fact is that your father is a transitional between your grandfather and you. If you don't understand that, you don't understand what "transitional" means. “If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Ringo,
If I understand what you are tryig to say, you may correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that it would make no difference if you could prove to me where the first life form came from and the singularity (orgin of the universe) came from in my conclusion. If that is what you are saying I beg to differ with you. You prove to me where the singularity, point in spacetime, or anything else you want to call it, came into existence from the absence of anything: You prove to me where and how the first life form came into existence from the absence of life: When you accomplish providing the proof for these two things then I will retract my statement:
ICANT writes: In fact I think it would be easier to walk to the moon. But be aware I did not say that would convince me that I evolved from a single cell life form. It would just convince me that it was just not as stupid as thinking it would be easier to walk to the moon. Now if I have lost you along the way just ignore me. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: You prove to me where the singularity, point in spacetime, or anything else you want to call it, came into existence from the absence of anything: The singularity has nothing to do with this discussion. We're only talking about what happened to single-celled life forms, evolving through Lucy to you.
You prove to me where and how the first life form came into existence from the absence of life: That also has nothing to do with this discussion. We're only talking about what happened after the origin. It's like we're trying to discuss the Bible and you're obsessing about whether a typesetting process or a photographic process was used to print it.
But be aware I did not say that would convince me that I evolved from a single cell life form. Nobody cares what you think. Nobody's trying to convince you of anything. I'd just as soon try to convince an amoeba that it's an amoeba. All I'm doing in this exchange with you is helping you demonstrate that you're incapable of debating honestly.
When you accomplish providing the proof for these two things then I will retract my statement: In fact I think it would be easier to walk to the moon. So you're saying that you didn't mean to compare evolution with walking to the moon? That's the only question I asked. You could have just told me I misunderstood you. As it is, I'm sure your evasion has been noted by the readers. I'll give you one last chance to redeem yourself. Do you think there's a barrier that prevents small changes from one generation to the next adding up to big changes? If so, please tell us what that barrier is. “If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Ringo,
I had to address this point.
That's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter what ethnicity your ancestors were any more than it matters whether Lucy was your direct ancestor. The fact is that your father is a transitional between your grandfather and you. If you don't understand that, you don't understand what "transitional" means. I may not understand what you mean by "transitional" so maybe you should give me a definition. Trying to think along the lines you have laid out I would see a transitional as: My grandmother being a 100% mortal human being.Me being a 100% spiritual being. My father being a 50% human being and a 50% spiritual being would be a transitional. But there is one more part to the equation. My mother would also have to be 50% human being and 50% spiritual being. Before you jump up and down shouting no, no, no, remember I am only trying to let you know what I think a transitional would be. Rather than saying one element becoming an entirely different element with the element between being the transitional. If there was nothing in-between then there would be no transitional. I am sure that many of you will correct my definition of transitional. Some will say in evolution that all the steps are transitional, so be it. At some point in the process one element has to cease to be that element in order to become the other element. This process is calledtransmutation. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=...
act or instance of transmuting or being transmuted: as a: the conversion of base metal into gold or silver b: the conversion of one element or nuclide into another either naturally or artificially. To get from the point of a single cell life form to a complete human being has to have many places where one creature life form became a totaly different creature life form. You have fun now, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Percy Member Posts: 22492 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ICANT writes: I am sure that many of you will correct my definition of transitional. Some will say in evolution that all the steps are transitional, so be it. Hopefully all will say this. All life is transitional, no matter what situation you consider, because reproduction is almost always imperfect. If the endpoints are your maternal grandfather at one end and you at the other, then your mother is a transitional between your maternal grandfather and you. If the endpoints are Cro-Magnon man and you, then all direct ancestors between you and Cro-Magnon man are transitional.
At some point in the process one element has to cease to be that element in order to become the other element. This process is called transmutation. Transmutation is not a biological term. There is never any step in the process of descent where the offspring is suddenly a different species. Generally, offspring are as closely related to their parents as you are to yours. It is only the sum of many steps of descent that produces new species, and the differences are only apparent if you compare organisms that are many, many steps apart. Speciation is one of those processes that happens very, very gradually. When do the foothills become mountains? Where does the harbor become ocean? When does the boy become a man? Where does the north become the south? These are all examples of gradual transitions. At some point we realize that there has been sufficient change, and then we say, "We're in mountain country now," or "We're in the open ocean now," or "I'm a man now." --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: At some point in the process one element has to cease to be that element in order to become the other element. (I'm not going to use the term "element" because that term has a specific meaning in science.) But no, one organism doesn't have to "cease to be" to become another organism. There's a little something called "reproduction". One organism (or more than one) produces an offspring, a different organism, a child. And because of the imperfections in DNA copying, the child is different from the parent. So there's already a change there, a transmutation, if you like. Every generation is already different from the previous one, even while the previous generation is still alive. So every change is a transition. Every generation is transitional. So what prevents those little transitions from adding up to big changes? “If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Ringo,
I'll give you one last chance to redeem yourself. Do you think there's a barrier that prevents small changes from one generation to the next adding up to big changes? If so, please tell us what that barrier is. Before I try to answer this question would you please clarify what you mean by big changes. If you are talking about the difference in a Chihuahua dog (small dog under 6 lbs) and a great dane (huge dog over 32 inches tall) I see no problems. I think it would be neat to start with a pair of chihuahua's and produce a great dane. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Ringo,
So there's already a change there, a transmutation, if you like. No Ringo there is evolution. There is not a transmutation whether I like or not, whether you like or not. The child has not ceased to be a human being. See definition of transmutation. Here:http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=... or Here:
Message 112 "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: quote: Before I try to answer this question would you please clarify what you mean by big changes. I think I've been pretty clear throughout the thread. Big changes are from single-cell to Lucy or from Lucy to you. Specifically, what barrier prevents that? “If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Ringo,
So every change is a transition. Every generation is transitional. Who passed that law? Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: The child has not ceased to be a human being. Of course not. Nobody has suggested that. Again and again and again, we're talking about cummulative changes from generation to generation, over thousands of generations. We're not talking and we have never been talking about one organism magically changing to a different species all by itself. “If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: quote: Who passed that law? It's not a "law". It's what the word means.
quote: “If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
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