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Author Topic:   Anyone else notice this pattern?
nator
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 318 (446499)
01-06-2008 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
12-29-2007 7:40 PM


Re: Postulating Poster Patterns
quote:
But there is this wrong-headed philosophy that abounds concerning scientists -- that they are the be-all, end-all -- as if no other human being could possibly add anything of substance to any given debate.

I don't know where you get that idea.

Maybe you are exaggerating. I think what is most often said is that if what a layperson thinks is true about a particular scientific issue contradicts what the consensus opinion of the scientific experts is concerning that issue, we should probably give greater weight to the scientific consensus.


This message is a reply to:
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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 47 of 318 (447230)
01-08-2008 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


I love this
and you are so right. Are you creationist and here to prove your point?

quote:
So, I have noticed that many of the Creationists on this board have, shall we say, less than stellar writing skills compared to the science-minded folks.

Is it compared to or compared with?

quote:
Sure, there are a few exceptions, but I would guess that well more than two thirds of the Creationists who have ever posted here simply write very poorly.

If this sentence is an example of your good writing skills, then you need to learn the meaning of the word verbose and redundant.

quote:
Their grammar and punctuation ranges from average to downright awful, they frequently fail to break their posts into paragraphs, and their ability to express ideas, sentence structure and word usage doesn't give one an impression of their having done very well in high school English.

The above is one of the most pathetic sentences I have read, particularly from a self-styled expert on the subject. Let's try it this way:

"The grammar and punctuation of creationists range from average to below. Often, they fail to correctly express ideas, have poor sentence structure and vocabulary and, thereby, give the impression of flunking first grade English."

quote:
On a related note, my husband frequents a message board populated by people who work in higher education. Not surprisingly, most posters there write well, and express themselves clearly and often eloquently.

I recommend you frequent the same message board as does your husband, and review with him what you have learned to improve your abilities.

quote:
Every so often a controversial subject such as Affirmative Action comes up in discussion, and he has noticed that of those people who pop up to write posts condemning it, many of them possess markedly poor writing skills.

In 25 words or less, write an essay outlining the basics of affirmative action.

quote:
So, why does everyone think this pattern exists?

I think this pattern exists, because you and your kind have not, will not, cannot learn the meaning of brevity in expression. You also cannot, will not, have not learned it takes all kinds. You are a magnificent case in point.
This message is a reply to:
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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 48 of 318 (447233)
01-08-2008 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
12-30-2007 11:58 AM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
I can relate to that as well, Phat. Having no college degree, I've had to learn as I go. EvC participation has effected ongoing improvement of communication and debating skills.

Hi,Buz:
May I help you out by saying the word you want is 'affected'. As for the word 'ongoing'? It is a poor substitute for the word continuing, since you cannot conjugate it. Unless it is acceptable to say ... ongo, ongoing, ongone, onwent. Have a good day.

As for a college degree and excellent English? Don't you believe it. It is a myth, one that likes to be perpetuated by the intelligentsia.

Edited by ThreeDogs, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 49 of 318 (447237)
01-08-2008 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by LinearAq
12-31-2007 8:15 AM


Re: Clarity in conveying an idea
quote:
Ken Ham does very well at writing his ideas and performs well when communicating to laymen of both sides. Many of the "scientists" at Answers in Genesis" are also skilled writers. I have seen them talk or write loops around those detractors that they deign to include in their discussions.

Caveat: Anyone with a well thought out question or comment in opposition gets ignored or, if it occurs in public, gets side tracked with what Ham and his ilk think is a nifty little logic counter punch to avoid answering the question.



The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by LinearAq, posted 12-31-2007 8:15 AM LinearAq has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16634
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 50 of 318 (447239)
01-08-2008 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ThreeDogs
01-08-2008 3:54 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
ThreeDogs writes:

As for the word 'ongoing'? It is a poor substitute for the word continuing, since you cannot conjugate it.

It's an adjective, Perfesser. The corresponding verb is "to go on". It is quite permissible to say ... go on, going on, gone on, went on.

I think Nator's point in the OP had more to do with the ability to express one's point clearly than with the homogenization of language. It takes all kinds, after all.

ABE:

Case in point, a load of gibberish like this (Message 49):

quote:
The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.

Edited by Ringo, : Added example.


“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 3:54 PM ThreeDogs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2008 4:43 PM ringo has responded
 Message 61 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-10-2008 9:06 AM ringo has responded

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 51 of 318 (447240)
01-08-2008 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
12-28-2007 10:26 PM


quote:
True, I know of one creationist with good spelling, grammar and paragraph construction.

But he can't argue his way out of a paper bag, due to sever logic failure.



At first glance, this appears contradictory and also at second glance.

quote:
Now, I have wondered whether creationists were bad at logic because of creationist teaching, or whether people bad at logic were creationist because of bad logic, which of course can just be the ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.... but then I've known people with logical aphasia that are just as bad arguing FOR science (one working on his masters).

This paragraph contains a degree of honesty that may easily serve as an example to the chance critic.

quote:
Nor are people satisfied with their current life-style interested in an education or learning anything outside their rose garden.

Another quality observation. Do you take your own counsel?

quote:
poepel aer godo ta nociting patrens evne tohgh ti mya nto eb a parten.

People are good at noticing patterns even though it may not be a pattern.

I do believe you have put your finger on what makes the world go round.


This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2093 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 52 of 318 (447252)
01-08-2008 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
01-08-2008 4:16 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.

someone spends too much time with his thesaurus in his lap.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 01-08-2008 4:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 01-08-2008 4:59 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded
 Message 55 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 9:26 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16634
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 53 of 318 (447264)
01-08-2008 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by macaroniandcheese
01-08-2008 4:43 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
brennakimi writes:

quote:
The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.

someone spends too much time with his thesaurus in his lap.

It does have a Whitmanesque quality, though, don't you think? :)


“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT

“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs


This message is a reply to:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 54 of 318 (447307)
01-08-2008 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by purpledawn
12-31-2007 6:42 AM


Re: Know Your Audience
Exactly. It's how you write, not in the aspect of appearing intelligent but your tone. Many science people have met defeat in debate because they came off hostile to an audience that believed literal genesis was true. In the same way that evangelicals are more or less reviled by non-evangelicals even though they believe in much of the same doctrine and beliefs as non-evangelicals who are seen in a much better light by most people.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 55 of 318 (447428)
01-09-2008 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by macaroniandcheese
01-08-2008 4:43 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
someone spends too much time with his thesaurus in his lap.

If you mean me, then the answer is not. I confess to something softer for that locus.
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 56 of 318 (447531)
01-09-2008 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ThreeDogs
01-09-2008 9:26 AM


Re: Working At Improvement
puppies will do that if you're not careful :D
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 9:26 AM ThreeDogs has not yet responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 57 of 318 (447563)
01-09-2008 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by obvious Child
01-08-2008 7:33 PM


Re: Know Your Audience
bleedingly obvious child writes:

Exactly. It's how you write, not in the aspect of appearing intelligent but your tone. Many science people have met defeat in debate because they came off hostile to an audience that believed literal genesis was true. In the same way that evangelicals are more or less reviled by non-evangelicals even though they believe in much of the same doctrine and beliefs as non-evangelicals who are seen in a much better light by most people.


Generally, in a popular debate the one that sounds nicer or tells a better sounding story wins. I learned this the hard way. Let just say that my audience walked way saying "wow, science is full of crap" after I accidently let it slipped out something like "it's obvious, I can't believe I have to explain this..."

Anyway, sometimes I think it's the intention of creationists to annoy people like myself and make us push ourselves over the edge, in turn giving them the upper hand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by obvious Child, posted 01-08-2008 7:33 PM obvious Child has responded

Replies to this message:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 58 of 318 (447564)
01-09-2008 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taz
01-09-2008 7:24 PM


Re: Know Your Audience
quote:
Anyway, sometimes I think it's the intention of creationists to annoy people like myself and make us push ourselves over the edge, in turn giving them the upper hand.

Well, angry people make mistakes.

'Winning' isn't about proving that your point is true, it is about whether or not your audience buys that it is true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 01-09-2008 7:24 PM Taz has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 59 of 318 (447571)
01-09-2008 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


I'll tell you what pattern I did notice, that supposedly higher educated, rational thinkers rarely know which way to turn a screw driver, can't hang a picture, or change their oil.

I've noticed there is a big difference in talking about how the world works, and actually working on it.

I've noticed so called "dumb" people, have more street smarts and common sense than most "educated" people. Autism kids are an example of just how people are good in some areas, and not good in others.

In other words what you've noticed is just life, and it doesn't mean shit. That's why the pattern exists. Should I go around calling all people who do not know how to turn a screw driver idiots? Or should I be fair, understanding, open minded, and willing to see both sides of a story and give the benefit of the doubt, and even help them to turn the dam screwdriver?

It's like your saying to us, only stupid people believe in God, and smart people are the ones that actually know what is going on. I fear not because I know God will show you different one day nator, as He did me. There's that chip I was talking about (bluegenes). The higher up you put yourself on that pedestal, the longer it is to fall.

Long live God, Nascar, beer, 3 wheelers, and people who can't spell who have no teeth. end rant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-28-2007 8:57 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 01-09-2008 7:59 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 70 by nator, posted 01-10-2008 6:11 PM riVeRraT has responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 60 of 318 (447575)
01-09-2008 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by riVeRraT
01-09-2008 7:39 PM


riverrat writes:

I'll tell you what pattern I did notice, that supposedly higher educated, rational thinkers rarely know which way to turn a screw driver, can't hang a picture, or change their oil.


Speak for yourself... I mean speak for someone else...

When I was a poor college student, one time I rear ended someone because the bastard 2 cars in front of me decided to slam on his break on a packed highway. I was the 3rd car down so I had the least time to react. Insurance decided that it wasn't 100% my fault.

Anyway, insurance gave me a check to have the car fixed. I spent that money on college tuition and other stuff. About the car, I went to half a dozen junk yards to find the parts I needed to fix my car, and let me tell you it was a total wreck. I basically had to replace almost everything from the driver's seat to the front. All of that I did with occasional help from my brother.

In fact, I can't remember the last time I took my car or my wife's car to a mechanic for something as routine as an oil change. I do all of that myself. Heck, I even rotate my own tires.

I've noticed there is a big difference in talking about how the world works, and actually working on it.

Why in the world did you vote for Bush, then? Wouldn't it have been better to have vote for John Edwards? He at least spent a part of his life having his hands on things.

I've noticed so called "dumb" people, have more street smarts and common sense than most "educated" people. Autism kids are an example of just how people are good in some areas, and not good in others.

I agree. Perhaps NASA should have hired "dumb" people to plan for the missions to other planets. Heck, let's hire "dumb" people to design the next kick-ass passenger jet.

It's like your saying to us, only stupid people believe in God, and smart people are the ones that actually know what is going on. I fear not because I know God will show you different one day nator, as He did me. There's that chip I was talking about (bluegenes). The higher up you put yourself on that pedestal, the longer it is to fall.

No. We're saying you guys stick with the street smarts and leave the academic stuff to us. Stop trying to tell us what science is and isn't. We don't try to tell you which wrench to use on what.

Scientists and academics are nothing more than specialists. Despite popular beliefs among "dumb" people, we really don't believe we're gods. We don't try to tell our mechanics which screw drive to use anymore than you don't try to tell your doctor which prescription he should give you (I'm assuming you don't micromanage how your doctor treat you).

We each have our own niche in society.

Long live God, Nascar, beer, 3 wheelers, and people who can't spell who have no teeth. end rant.

Well, long live Mozart, Rachmaninoff, and Mendelssohn... and Newton, Heissenberg, and Darwin! Rant disengaged.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2008 7:39 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
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