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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 196 of 301 (447380)
01-09-2008 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by arachnophilia
01-08-2008 7:00 PM


quote:
one wonders what jesus meant when he said "love your enemy"
Better, 'LOVE THE STRANGER'. OT rules. Consider how Jesus' followers behaved for 2000 years in medevial europe - even failing to the lesser advocation of 'LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by arachnophilia, posted 01-08-2008 7:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by arachnophilia, posted 01-09-2008 2:59 AM IamJoseph has not replied
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 01-09-2008 3:11 AM IamJoseph has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 197 of 301 (447381)
01-09-2008 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by IamJoseph
01-09-2008 2:55 AM


in roman-occupied judea, the neighbour was often the enemy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by IamJoseph, posted 01-09-2008 2:55 AM IamJoseph has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 198 of 301 (447382)
01-09-2008 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Raphael
01-07-2008 12:49 PM


No such thing as satan/sataan. These came later, via christianity and islam. Even the metaphoric bad guy, the serpent, is listed only as 'the most cunning creature', and by reason of violating a command/law. Equally, no such thing as a good guy who does not follow the laws. A differing view borders on, and can incline with a non-belief in Monotheism and Oniscience.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 301 (447383)
01-09-2008 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by IamJoseph
01-09-2008 2:55 AM


Makes You Wonder What God Expects
IamJoseph writes:
Consider how Jesus' followers behaved for 2000 years in medevial europe - even failing to the lesser advocation of 'LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR'?
On the one hand, it makes a bad case for Spiritual Impartation, but on the other hand it provides a great argument for Original Sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by IamJoseph, posted 01-09-2008 2:55 AM IamJoseph has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 200 of 301 (447392)
01-09-2008 5:21 AM


There is no reason whatsoever to love Satan. Those who suggest that are manifesting rebellion against God. Whatother reason could possibly be given to align one's self with the Devil in any regard except to oppose God?
I is not cute to so "love Satan." It is not novel. It is not clever. It is not whimsmical fresh new idea. It is revolt against everything righteous, good, holy, beautiful and of one's own best interest.
Love you enemies does not refer to ddisciples of Jesus loving fallen angels. Fot the disciples of Jesus to live their enemies does not refer to Christians to love evil spirits or demons. It refers to man and women of faith living other human beings even when they are their enemies by the grace and power of Christ's Spirit not in the self effort of the natural man.
The people who "love Satan" to the extent of becoming Satanists are only expressing their love for lawlessness and sinful appetites. They are deceived and want to express their rebellion against God and any plan of salvation God has.
I know I'm verbose. But I think it can be a waste of time to write here too many one liners like a chat room.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 201 of 301 (447430)
01-09-2008 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Greatest I am
01-08-2008 4:57 PM


Re: Hey I saw you post this
quote:
The less fundamental the site the beter is the dialog.
There are few posting on CARM who understand the meaning of the word 'fundamental' in connection with Christianity. However, Christians with a fixed idea regarding satan's resume, will find your contentions about him repulsive.
quote:
At least they do not kick people out just because of their ideas.
If by they, you mean CARM? What was your agenda posting such material on a Christian site? If by they, you mean EvC? Don't comply with the rules and you're a goner.

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 Message 193 by Greatest I am, posted 01-08-2008 4:57 PM Greatest I am has not replied

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 202 of 301 (447437)
01-09-2008 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by arachnophilia
01-08-2008 7:00 PM


quote:
considering that satan is the enemy, one wonders what jesus meant when he said "love your enemy"
Jesus does not want passivity from His followers, He wants surrender of the right to personal revenge. His point is made by observing and understanding the radical examples He leaves behind about the attitude we should have toward those who hurt us. Instead of getting even, we go the opposite way. We need to be ready to be humble for Christ. It isn't easy to understand that vengeance is not ours, but God's. (Romans 12:19).
Our tendency is to seek emotional satisfaction of revenge for an injury (Genesis 4:8). The natural man is geared toward an in-kind response to any injury, which is hatred and the adrenaline-charged desire for pay-back. Therefore, Jesus makes it clear in His Sermon on the Mount that literal murder and inward hatred are subject to God's judgment. They are the same. (Matthew 5:22-23).

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 Message 194 by arachnophilia, posted 01-08-2008 7:00 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 203 of 301 (447448)
01-09-2008 10:25 AM


God is perfect.
He makes all souls and angels, if you believe in angels, perfect.
Satan represents all evils and all woes. He too is perfect.
To love a sinner or Satan, we are asked to recognize the perfection of his soul.
To love all evil is to be told that they are a requirement for us to know the mind of God.
Genesis is clear on us needing the knowledge of good and evil in order to know God.
Job clearly shows that God controls evil.
Satan then by showing us evil is moving us towards God.
This makes him God’ right hand man and a necessary part of creation.
Satan was in the garden when God pronounced that it was good.
Satan is good according to scripture.
Loving Satan is the same as loving all sinners, as we are all.
We must love each other. A standard of Christian faith.
Should we love all that God gave us as a start in the Garden? Yes.
This includes the good serpent and the tree of knowledge of evil.
Without them we cannot know God.
Without them we are no smarter than cows, not knowing much of anything.
Regards
DL

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by pelican, posted 01-10-2008 6:04 PM Greatest I am has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 204 of 301 (447471)
01-09-2008 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by jaywill
01-09-2008 5:21 AM


jaywill writes:
There is no reason whatsoever to love Satan. Those who suggest that are manifesting rebellion against God. Whatother reason could possibly be given to align one's self with the Devil in any regard except to oppose God?
You have the cart before the horse. It isn't that we "want to rebel" against God and therefore choose Satan as our ally. It's that we are naturally rebellious (you know that "free will" thing?) and the various portrayals of "the Devil" in the Bible are personifications of our rebellion.
The reason to love Satan is that Satan is us.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

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Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Raphael, posted 01-09-2008 10:12 PM ringo has replied

Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 205 of 301 (447580)
01-09-2008 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by ringo
01-09-2008 1:12 PM


Ringo writes:
You have the cart before the horse. It isn't that we "want to rebel" against God and therefore choose Satan as our ally. It's that we are naturally rebellious (you know that "free will" thing?) and the various portrayals of "the Devil" in the Bible are personifications of our rebellion.
I think you have it all backwards Ringo. Satan is not us because of the usage of his name. His name is used, not as personification, but as a proper noun, as in "Ringo" did this or "Ringo" said that. We are naturally rebellious, but that does not mean we are born the manifestation of evil. We are....inclined to sin, but God lets us choose weather or not to, therefore, if we choose to "love" Satan, it would imply we are sympathizing with him. Why would you want to sympathize with the manifestation of all evil?
The reason to love Satan is that Satan is us.
Satan is us? If that were true we are all going to burn in the lake of fire. Satan and his followers (demons) are the only creatures predestined to burn in the lake of fire. By saying "we are Satan" you are damning yourself.
Raph

Truth is still Truth, Weather One or a Thousand People believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 01-09-2008 1:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 01-09-2008 11:17 PM Raphael has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 206 of 301 (447582)
01-09-2008 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Raphael
01-09-2008 10:12 PM


Raphael writes:
His name is used, not as personification, but as a proper noun, as in "Ringo" did this or "Ringo" said that.
That's what personification is - portraying something that isn't a person as if it was a person. For example, giving it a name.
We are....inclined to sin, but God lets us choose weather or not to, therefore, if we choose to "love" Satan, it would imply we are sympathizing with him.
You're missing the point. If we choose to love Satan, we are "sympathizing" with our own inclination to sin. We are understanding that that inclination is our nature.
Jesus said, "Love thy neighbour as thyself." We can't love ourselves without forgiving ourselves for our sinful, rebellious nature. God has forgiven us. We can't love Him or our neighbours or ourselves until we forgive ourselves too.
Why would you want to sympathize with the manifestation of all evil?
Because "the manifestation of all evil" is inside us. It isn't some external entity. It's us.
Satan is us? If that were true we are all going to burn in the lake of fire. Satan and his followers (demons) are the only creatures predestined to burn in the lake of fire.
You're missing the point. "Satan" isn't an entity. "He" is our tendency to do wrong. It's our sinful nature that will be burned in the lake of fire. It's a purification, not a punishment.
By saying "we are Satan" you are damning yourself.
On the contrary, I'm freeing myself from an "enemy". I'm forgiving myself as God has forgiven me.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Raphael, posted 01-09-2008 10:12 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by pelican, posted 01-10-2008 3:07 AM ringo has replied
 Message 233 by Raphael, posted 01-11-2008 12:06 AM ringo has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 207 of 301 (447608)
01-10-2008 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by ringo
01-09-2008 11:17 PM


speaking for myself
RINGO: [Jesus said, "Love thy neighbour as thyself." We can't love ourselves without forgiving ourselves for our sinful, rebellious nature. God has forgiven us. We can't love Him or our neighbours or ourselves until we forgive ourselves too.]
Why did god give you a sinful, rebellious nature and not me? That's not fair. I want one too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 01-09-2008 11:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2008 5:48 AM pelican has replied
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 01-10-2008 10:09 AM pelican has replied
 Message 216 by nwr, posted 01-10-2008 10:55 AM pelican has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 208 of 301 (447613)
01-10-2008 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by pelican
01-10-2008 3:07 AM


Re: speaking for myself
Why did god give you a sinful, rebellious nature and not me? That's not fair. I want one too.
Go ask your mother and father and some of your friends if you have ever been rebellious or "sinful"? That might give you a little different perspective for starters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by pelican, posted 01-10-2008 3:07 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by pelican, posted 01-10-2008 6:56 AM jaywill has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 209 of 301 (447615)
01-10-2008 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jaywill
01-10-2008 5:48 AM


Re: speaking for myself
Huh? What are you suggesting?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jaywill, posted 01-10-2008 5:48 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Phat, posted 01-10-2008 7:53 AM pelican has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 210 of 301 (447619)
01-10-2008 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by pelican
01-10-2008 6:56 AM


Sin by Definition
By definition, sin is separation from Gods will. Since we can't always be 100% certain of what the will of God actually is, and since our human nature is to think for ourselves anyway, we all sin.
As for rebellion.....
We can't honestly be accused of rebellion if we are doing the best that we can on a moment by moment basis.
Guilt was never a part of Gods gameplan, IMB.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by pelican, posted 01-10-2008 6:56 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
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