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Author Topic:   scientific theories taught as factual
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 218 of 295 (447762)
01-10-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by NosyNed
01-10-2008 6:13 PM


Re: something else wrong
Ned,
Those whom you are quoting are wrong.
Would you like to present evidence to prove such a charge.
I think you have a nearly perfect record of having nothing right in any of your posts.
BTW I always did like to bat a 1,000
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by NosyNed, posted 01-10-2008 6:13 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 223 of 295 (447812)
01-10-2008 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by RAZD
01-10-2008 9:18 PM


Re: Your statements
Hi RAZD,
What is the difference between a colony and a multicellular life?
Sounds stupit but I will play along.
A single cell=an organism composed of a single cell.
A colony of single cell bacteria=a bunch of organisms that are composed of a single cell.
A multicellular organism=an organism composed of 2 or more cells that have divided and compose one organism.
I hope that was not a trick question and I got it right.
Not really - I don't assign them to micro or macro, and "macro" generally refers to (continued) evolution after speciation, so speciation is just the boundary of "micro" and "macro" levels.
Now back to your regular program of (mis)information (and trolling).
Ok I will get back to my (mis)information as you put it.
The following is a message you posted in message 89 of Evolution and the big lie.
Thanks Percy, but I'm not really interested in another thread about what the definition is, rather I want to explore what we can deduce about biological life based on basic processes and observed mechanisms. People who want to discuss the definition can go to "the definition of evolution" thread (it is still open).
Using neutral language we can say that:
Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
This process can be measured and documented, it can be observed in all living species and thus is an observed fact, part of the evidence of objective reality.
There are several mechanisms that cause this process to occur, and these include
  • genetic mutation,
    • insertions\deletions during replication
    • point mutations,
    • etc.
  • epigenetic effects on the development of phenotypes,
    • nutrition effects,
    • chemical effects,
    • climate effects,
    • etc.
  • various selection processes,
    • sexual selection,
    • ecological selection,
    • intentional selection,
    • survival selection,
    • etc.
  • neutral trait drift,
    • etc.
  • etc.
Each of these mechanisms can be tested and observed in various species at various times, but it should be noted that several don't need to be continual mechanisms. Nor is their any "hierarchy" in action of the mechanisms and their relative importance can change (neutral trait drift could be more important during static than rapid periods of change, for instance).
It would be interesting to list all the mechanisms that are involved, but this would be a good topic on it's own, if not needing a thread topic on each mechanism, as we see continued debate about the mechanism of mimicry spanning several threads. It's also a good topic for individual study in depth (say by taking a university course in biology ... ).
Discussing all the different mechanisms involved in the process should not be necessary to this thread, other than to mention some in passing as necessary, and thus we should be able to start with the most basic process that anyone can validate with their own observations:
Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
Creationist say this is just "variation and adaptation within kinds," which they use to describe the process of change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation from their hypothetical "original created kinds," with special reference to those that survived the hypothetical world flood event.
Included in the creationist model of biological change ("variation and adaptation within kinds") -- especially following the hypothetical flood event -- is speciation. The definition of species is also covered in an existing open thread - the "Definition of Species" thread - so we don't need to pursue that particular definitional\philosophical\semantic rathole here either. Going back to Message 73:
quote:
(http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp)
quote:
... new species have been observed to form. In fact, rapid speciation is an important part of the creation model. But this speciation is within the “kind," ...
'speciation' is the division of a single species into two (or more) species.
Speciation is also often seen as the division line between micro-effects and macro-effects in the study of biological life, and so we may want to look at this as another process, with an emphasis on the hereditary relationship (to ensure the creationist position of "within a kind" is included):
Biological Process #2 is the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.
Again there are several known and observed mechanisms involved, each of which could become a new thread. Speciation occurs by:
  • allopatric mechanisms,
  • peripatric mechanisms (including "founder effect"),
  • parapatric mechanisms (including "ring species"),
  • sympatric mechanisms (including "cryptic species"),
  • artificially, through animal husbandry or
  • artificially in laboratory experiments,
  • etc.
There's a graphic that shows the four basic types of speciation at:
File:Speciation modes.svg - Wikipedia
I think this is enough for discussion to proceed for now:
Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
Biological Process #2 is the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.
As has been demonstrated so far, this fits with creationist "variation and adaptation within kinds," and "speciation within the kind" so we should be able to agree on these processes as occurring in modern life, and that there is sufficient evidence for these processes that we can say it is a fact that they occur.
Enjoy.Actually, I am trying to discuss a process, so I have stopped using the word "evolution" to prevent everyone being confused and distracted by their pet (& often divergent) definitions.
I think this is enough for discussion to proceed for now:
Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
Biological Process #2 is the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.
As has been demonstrated so far, this fits with creationist "variation and adaptation within kinds," and "speciation within the kind" so we should be able to agree on these processes as occurring in modern life, and that there is sufficient evidence for these processes that we can say it is a fact that they occur.
From message 96 same Topic.
We seem to have agreement then that we have two processes (even though they may overlap) that occur in modern everyday biological life as we know it:
Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
Biological Process #2 is the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.
We observe instances of these processes happening by various mechanisms as previously noted, and thus these are facts in today's world.
The question is whether this is what has happened in the past and whether anything else was involved. To test this we will form a theory:

Theory #1:
That each species known today can be traced backwards to parent species through historical, fossil or genetic records, while only involving (1) the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation, and (2) the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.

Stated simply: we posit that Process (1) and Process (2) are sufficient to explain the diversity of life today from the records of previous generations of species.
Since the first life form was a single cell life form you stated these processes sufficient to trace all the way there.
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by RAZD, posted 01-10-2008 9:18 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2008 8:05 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 224 of 295 (447813)
01-10-2008 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Coragyps
01-10-2008 9:52 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi Coragyps,
But she isn't "locked away." I saw her - the realio, trulio fossil bones - in Houston last month. And there is only the one australopithecine that was named "Lucy."
I hate to break the news to you but if you were told you was looking at the real Lucy YOU WERE LIED TOO.
Unfortunately, the "real" Lucy can't be seen in Addis Ababa. Because of the rare and fragile nature of fossils, including Lucy's skeleton, molds are usually made of the originals, which are then used to create detailed copies (casts). These detailed copies are then used for teaching, research, and exhibits in institutions around the world. This is what has been done with Lucy.
The "real" Lucy is stored in a specially constructed safe, in the Paleoanthropology Laboratories of the National Museum of Ethiopia in Addis Ababa. On display in the museum is one of the casts of the original skeleton. Visitors to the Ethiopian National Museum in Addis Ababa can see a replica skeleton laid out by itself in pieces, showing the 40 percent that was discovered.
Also on display is a fascinating reconstructed full skeleton of Lucy that shows her height and stance. When she was alive, Lucy would have been about 3-1/2 feet tall and weighed about 60 to 65 pounds.
Underlining and bolding mine
Account Suspended
I always thought if something was stored in a specially design safe it was locked away.
Goes to show you how stupid I am.
Just keep believing everything you are told.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Coragyps, posted 01-10-2008 9:52 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Modulous, posted 01-11-2008 3:09 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 227 by Coragyps, posted 01-11-2008 9:49 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 228 of 295 (447908)
01-11-2008 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Coragyps
01-11-2008 9:49 AM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi Coragyps,
You did read the article that you referenced. Where it says:
Houston & Texas News
A three-dimensional model of the 3.2 million-year-old hominid known as Lucy is to be on display at the Houston
Museum of Natural Science. The exhibition opens Aug. 31.
PAT SULLIVAN: AP
Underlining and bolding mine.
I guess poor ole Pat Sullivan was lied to. He thought it was a model.
Maybe Mr. Sullivan was not supposed to state it was a model I don't know. But if you can't see the real one in Ethiopia I doubt very seriously if you saw the real one in Houston.
You may have seen the model that has been on display in Ethiopia for the past 20 years.
These detailed copies are then used for teaching, research, and exhibits in institutions around the world. This is what has been done with Lucy.
Account Suspended
I will leave it at the statement of Mr. Sullivan and the statement found on the Ethiopian web site.
You be the judge and believe whatever you desire.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Coragyps, posted 01-11-2008 9:49 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Modulous, posted 01-11-2008 12:12 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 234 by Coragyps, posted 01-11-2008 1:09 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 229 of 295 (447910)
01-11-2008 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by RAZD
01-11-2008 8:05 AM


Re: Your statements
Hi RAZD,
What's the difference?
ICANT writes:
and compose one organism.
rather than a bunch or organism's
They are. The genetic record does not contradict this. The fossil record does not contradict this. The history of natural life that we know does not contradict this. Therefore no other process is necessary.
Then why did you say?
RAZD writes:
Not really - I don't assign them to micro or macro, and "macro" generally refers to (continued) evolution after speciation, so speciation is just the boundary of "micro" and "macro" levels.
Message 221
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2008 8:05 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2008 7:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 230 of 295 (447913)
01-11-2008 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by DrJones*
01-10-2008 6:04 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi Jones,
Speculation from an amateur webpage about cyrogenics is harly evidence that mammoths were frozen instantly by the ice age. Got anything from a scientific journal?
As always read what you want and believe what you want.
You did not mention the researchers that plan on using frozen sperm from those animals to try and bring them back.
Apparantly they believe those animals were frozen quick enough to preserve the sperm that they will be able to use it. That means they don't believe the animals were frozen over a long period of time. More like flash freeze.
Anyway here is the quote and website again.
It isn't exactly Jurassic Park, but Japanese researchers are looking at the possibility of using sperm from frozen animals to inseminate living relatives.
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
Then again that may just be a pack of lies somebody is writing about just to sell papers or get viewers for msnbc.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by DrJones*, posted 01-10-2008 6:04 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by DrJones*, posted 01-11-2008 2:08 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 232 of 295 (447931)
01-11-2008 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Modulous
01-11-2008 3:09 AM


Re: lucy in the states: worth more than diamonds
Hi Mod,
With scepticism of others as well as a scepticism for the perfection of your own perceived knowledge, you can develop a healthy attitude to debate around here - at least that's my experience and I thought you might benefit from thinking about it.
Thanks for the info. I do tend to put the tongue in motion sometimes before the brain.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Modulous, posted 01-11-2008 3:09 AM Modulous has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 233 of 295 (447939)
01-11-2008 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by sidelined
01-10-2008 6:05 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi sidelined,
ABE Check out this video and see how much we have learned about the workings of the cell
That was some amazing computer animation. Somebody spent several hours puting that together. Reminds me of the windows animation when windows media player is playing a cd.
No
The physics of electromagnetism give rise to the elements and the chemical interactions of the biology that makes up cellular life and the operations within those cells are all chemistry in action.
Amazing, what holds all those chemicals together?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2008 6:05 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Coragyps, posted 01-11-2008 1:12 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 238 by sidelined, posted 01-11-2008 2:02 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 236 of 295 (447945)
01-11-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by DrJones*
01-10-2008 6:09 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi Jones,
The pictures show different reconstructions of Lucy's skeleton, what's the evidence that these are different bones?
That is just it. These are replicas all supposed to be exact copies of Lucy. They have been displayed as an exact replica of Lucy. But no 2 are alike.
That tends to make me believe somebody is not being truthful. Either they did not have access to the real one, or they had an agenda.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by DrJones*, posted 01-10-2008 6:09 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by DrJones*, posted 01-11-2008 2:10 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 237 of 295 (447957)
01-11-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Coragyps
01-11-2008 1:09 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi Coragyps,
Do you really think that there would be a fuss over taking a replica of the fossil out of Ethiopia?
Sorry I ruffled you pile of chemicals so much.
Now lets just dream for a moment. If I was in charge of something as old as Lucy in Ethiopia. (A country that don't have the laws and privilidges as we do in the US.) I would protect it as if my life depended on it because it probably would. It would not get out of my control or care for anything other than my dead body. But if I wanted to use a replica and make the world think it was the real thing, I would see to it that a very big fuss was made over the replica. Because I want you to be convinced you are getting the real thing.
Now I am not saying anybody else would do that.
I am saying that I would do it.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Coragyps, posted 01-11-2008 1:09 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Coragyps, posted 01-11-2008 2:29 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 242 by DrJones*, posted 01-11-2008 2:34 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 243 by jar, posted 01-11-2008 2:51 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 246 by nwr, posted 01-11-2008 5:37 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 244 of 295 (448008)
01-11-2008 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by sidelined
01-11-2008 2:02 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi sidelined,
As a bonus I thought you might like to see that same video again but with a narration from the creator of it at this site here
A fabulous piece of work.
sidelined writes:
The electromagnetic force present in the chemical bonds.
I can see the magnetic attachments but that does not answer my question.
All chemicals I know about are liquid.
Unless liquid has a container is is usually kind of messy and uncontrollable.
You have whetted my appetite so more information please.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by sidelined, posted 01-11-2008 2:02 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Coragyps, posted 01-11-2008 5:37 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 248 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-11-2008 6:49 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 249 by Percy, posted 01-11-2008 7:01 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 250 by bluescat48, posted 01-11-2008 7:23 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 259 by sidelined, posted 01-11-2008 10:55 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 269 by nator, posted 01-13-2008 9:24 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 245 of 295 (448013)
01-11-2008 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by DrJones*
01-11-2008 2:34 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi Jones,
I see you didn't read the entire post or either you can't understand plain english or can't think of something important to contribute as jar constantly reminds me to do.
I said if I was in charge and my life depended upon me taking care of Lucy and I wanted you to think a replica was the real thing I would tell you a lie in a heartbeat.
Just like many have lied trying to convince the world evolution on the bigger scale is a scientific fact.
The opposite of that if is I am not in charge of Lucy.
DrJones writes:
So you're saying that you're a liar?
I like George Washington will have to tell the truth I cannot lie.
Yes I have lied. The first time probably when I was about a day old and there was nothing wrong but I cried making my mom or dad think something was wrong. It could have been a little longer before I told my first lie but probably not much.
I hope that is a satisfactory answer.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by DrJones*, posted 01-11-2008 2:34 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by anglagard, posted 01-11-2008 7:56 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 253 of 295 (448061)
01-11-2008 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by RAZD
01-11-2008 7:32 PM


Re: Your statements
Hi RAZD,
How do you tell? Is a sponge a bunch of organisms or a single organism?
Another one of those trick questions.
A sponge is a unicellular animal that has no muscles, nerves or internal organs.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2008 7:32 PM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phalanx, posted 01-11-2008 8:36 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 254 of 295 (448064)
01-11-2008 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Percy
01-11-2008 7:01 PM


Re: Sudden Appearances
Hi Percy,
Very believable.
Thank you for reading what I said not what everybody thought I should say.
I did leave out one solid chemical that I know a little about and that is fertilizer.
I use some other solid chemicals around the yard but all I know about them is that I buy they put them out and they work.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Percy, posted 01-11-2008 7:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by anglagard, posted 01-11-2008 8:45 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 260 by Percy, posted 01-11-2008 11:47 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 257 of 295 (448070)
01-11-2008 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by anglagard
01-11-2008 7:56 PM


Re: ICANT be Taken Seriously
Hi anglagard,
I see you are the same as usual. But please don't have a heart attack and die laughing at all my jokes.
anglagard writes:
when confronted by the fact that the actual Lucy fossil is at the Natural History Museum in Houston, right now, refuse to apologize for your obvious mistake.
You may believe the actual Lucy fossil is in Houston, I am not convinced she is.
I do not remember saying the one there was a fake I thought I said a replica which is a little different.
I did say concerning the 8 different replicas that have been shown as replicas of Lucy had some major problems and they don't match so they have to be called something beside replicas of Lucy. I will let you decide what to call them.
Have fun,
I would go more with comic relief.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by anglagard, posted 01-11-2008 7:56 PM anglagard has not replied

  
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