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Author Topic:   Is there any reason that the US government should be trusted?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 25 (439625)
12-09-2007 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 2:40 PM


Re: The whole government?
Jar is saying that from top to bottom, any and all people within the government is a criminal.
I don't see where he's saying that. What he's saying is that nearly every influence of this administration on the government has been a bad influence, and I agree.
Rather than being hyperbolic about the whole thing, maybe he should just go after those who are committing the crimes, like you and I suggest.
When someone is ordered to commit a crime, the punishment should be greater for he who ordered it than for he who committed it. Don't you agree?
We should go after who is responsible for the crimes. I think the responsibility goes right to the top. Not just on some kind of principle; the responsibility goes to the top because that's where the orders came from; that's where the conditions were created that made people give those orders.
If Bush is ordering illegal things, then charge and impeach him. So far, no one has been able to do that.
Republicans will never allow it, no matter what crimes we know the President has committed. They're made that obvious. The whole party suborns and condones lawbreaking by executives. It's practically their party platform.
The President of the United States is a bit of a patsy.
This one is, certainly, and it's by his own choice.
We simply need more accountability within these shadow agencies. People like the man who blew the whistle on the very case we are now discussing.
Do you think that's going to happen when the President creates a culture that punishes whistleblowing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 2:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 6:37 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 25 (439627)
12-09-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 2:40 PM


Re: The whole government?
Jar is saying that from top to bottom, any and all people within the government is a criminal.
I assume that you can show where I said that. Do you think maybe some administrative action should be taken for your repeated misrepresentation of what I actually have said?
Is there some reason you cannot understand
jar writes:
I never said that every person in government is corrupt, and in fact know that to be false. I worked for almost two decades in government and knew quite a few people who were actually very competent. The problem was, they were hampered by the fact that we tend to elect ignorant folk for the most part and write stupid laws. And that is the best case scenario, to actually accomplish anything while working for the government you must do it in spite of the system.
or
jar writes:
However I have never said that everyone working for the government was corrupt. If that were true there would have been no need for this Administration to make one of their first acts, removing the protection for whistle blowers.
or
jar writes:
No, I am judging the organization. The fact is that the culture this Administration has created is one of Evil. They have filled as many spots as possible with folk that love secrecy and despise the Constitution.
from Message 11?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 2:40 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 18 of 25 (439638)
12-09-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-08-2007 7:15 PM


Yes, our gov't should be trusted as much as any gov't should be trusted in general. What should not be trusted at all is any statement or activity associated with the Bush administration.
I have hopes that the system will correct itself, as Bush and Co are forced to vacate their positions of power.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 7:15 PM jar has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 25 (439668)
12-09-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
12-09-2007 3:49 PM


Re: The whole government?
quote:
Jar is saying that from top to bottom, any and all people within the government is a criminal.
I don't see where he's saying that. What he's saying is that nearly every influence of this administration on the government has been a bad influence, and I agree.
If he meant that, then he should have been more clear. I asked him, specifically, if the entire US government is corrupt. In no uncertain terms he stated that, yes, "ALL" of the government.
When someone is ordered to commit a crime, the punishment should be greater for he who ordered it than for he who committed it. Don't you agree?
I would say they share equal liability generally. But I'm sure there are some exceptions to the rule, such as, the perpetrator not having any knowledge of criminality when the one who ordered it does.
We should go after who is responsible for the crimes. I think the responsibility goes right to the top. Not just on some kind of principle; the responsibility goes to the top because that's where the orders came from; that's where the conditions were created that made people give those orders.
Is there any evidence that says it did come from the top? That's what you need to concern yourself with first. And where is the top? General Hayden or President Bush?
Republicans will never allow it, no matter what crimes we know the President has committed.
Republicans or Democrats don't get to decide that. The Supreme Court does.
Do you think that's going to happen when the President creates a culture that punishes whistleblowing?
Why do you think that a culture of whistelblowing is being punished? There are two fundamental things about whistelblowing.
1. The whistleblower is blowing the whistle because there are illegal activities going on. They feel morally obligated to stop the corruption. Then they are either listened to or systematically suppressed for an agenda.
2. The whistleblower is intentionally distorting things to further an agenda coming from their side of the spectrum. Essentially they are slandering someone to further their own agenda.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 3:49 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2007 6:48 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 21 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 6:50 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 23 by Rrhain, posted 12-15-2007 9:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 25 (439673)
12-09-2007 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 6:37 PM


Re: The whole government?
I would say they share equal liability generally.
Surely you don't really think that. Or does the term "coercion" mean nothing to you?
Republicans or Democrats don't get to decide that. The Supreme Court does.
Somebody needs to re-read their Constitution. Articles of impeachment ae brought by the House of Representatives, not the Supreme Court.
Remember? That little affair with Clinton? How soon they forget, I guess.
That's what you need to concern yourself with first. And where is the top? General Hayden or President Bush?
Again, reading the US constitution will answer your question about who is the Commander-in-Chief of the US armed forces.
Why do you think that a culture of whistelblowing is being punished?
Because of all the whistleblowers that have been punished by the Bush Administration? Just a thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 6:37 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 25 (439674)
12-09-2007 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 6:37 PM


Re: The whole government?
Republicans or Democrats don't get to decide that. The Supreme Court does.
But doesn't that statement make a huge assumption? I think we have already seen political bias within the court, and Bush has been stocking it (or attempting to) with further politically biased members.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 6:37 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 25 (441007)
12-15-2007 7:48 PM


Yet more evidence that this Administration cannot be trusted.
The Bush Cabal does not want an independent investigation on the destruction of the video tapes.
What is it they fear?
Truth perhaps?
Bush administration: Back off CIA tape probe

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 23 of 25 (441018)
12-15-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 6:37 PM


Re: The whole government?
Nemesis Juggernaut responds to crashfrog:
quote:
quote:
Republicans will never allow it, no matter what crimes we know the President has committed.
Republicans or Democrats don't get to decide that. The Supreme Court does.
Incorrect. The court system does not get to go out and find cases to try. They have to be brought to them. And who is in charge of the prosecutorial side of things? That's right...the Executive branch.
Look at the contempt charges that are being brought against administration officials such as Miers and Rove. Even though the law explicitly states that the Justice Department must start proceedings against them once Congress files the charges, the statement out of the Justice Department is that they won't; that they somehow have discretion in the matter.
Without anybody to prosecute the case, the courts will never have the opportunity to make a ruling on the issue.
And if we're talking about impeachment, that happens outside the courts. Impeachment of the President is ordered by the House and tried in the Senate. While the Chief Justice is present, he is there merely to keep order. The Court has no power to decide the case: The Senate is the one who decides whether or not the charges have been proven and to remove the President from office.
Thus, crashfrog's statement is entirely accurate: Any attempt to actually impose sanctions upon this administration have been and will be blocked by the Republicans. The Congressional Republicans would never vote articles of impeachment and the Senate Republicans would never vote to impeach. And the Republicans in the administration would never allow the Justice Department to fully investigate their own.
Why do you think the only outcome of the treasonous revealing of a CIA operative was a prosecution of perjury? It isn't that no crime was committed. It's that everybody involved obstructed the investigation. We never got anywhere near finding out how it happened.
And what happened then? The sentence was commuted. And I predict that Libby will eventually receive a full pardon.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 6:37 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
LouieP
Junior Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 12
From: Schererville, IN
Joined: 01-02-2008


Message 24 of 25 (447919)
01-11-2008 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 2:40 PM


Re: The whole government?
happen to find any truth in this statement. just out of curiosity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIO-tCPSfHA

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 2:40 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 25 of 25 (447928)
01-11-2008 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-08-2007 7:15 PM


US citizens to place any trust in our government?
no. we need a federal recall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 7:15 PM jar has not replied

  
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