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Author Topic:   Anyone else notice this pattern?
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 91 of 318 (448030)
01-11-2008 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 1:05 PM


quote:
I call Bullshit. You always come out these things that appear to completely contradict what I say.

LOL! Gasp! Maybe that's because what I say does completely contradict what you say.

quote:
Let me tell you nator, I work on things for a living, and the majority of my customers are academic people who do not know how to turn a screw driver.

"Academic people"? As in, "people who work in academia"? Or, do you mean people with a lot of education? there's a difference, you know.

Of course, even if this is true, you are making an illogical leap to conclude that since you have a lot of highly-educated clients that all or most highly-educated people can't turn a screwdriver.

Things you might not have considered:

-They know how to but don't enjoy it so they pay someone to do it.

-They know how to do it but don't have the time to do it.

-Less-educated people might be just as likely to not know how to turn a screwdriver as a more educated person, but they cannot afford to have someone like you come to their house to fix things, so you never see them.

-you don't get called to the houses where the highly-educated people don't need you because they already know how to do it.

So, you have a self-selected sample that doesn't really tell you anything about educated people's general ability to turn screwdrivers, since you don't know what proportion of all highly-educated people that works out to. You also don't know how many less-educated people don't know how to turn screwdrivers because they can't afford to have people like you come to their house.

quote:
I even had one lady who was so impressed with my problem solving skills, and once explained to her in an understandable fashion she commented on why can't her husband who is a brain surgeon, figure these things out. This is typical.

If the brain surgeon had the proper instruction, he almost certainly would be able to figure these things out.

quote:
you didn't just say that all people on drugs are dumb?

No.

I said, since you clearly didn't read it the first time:

The "dumb" ones were the ones more likely to have spent time in prison and to have gotten mixed up with drugs. Obviously, they couldn't have had much "street smarts" or "common sense" if they got mixed up with that kind of stuff.

People with a lot of common sense and street smarts don't get mixed up with drugs and get on the wrong side of the law.

I hardly think that this could be considered a controversial statment.

Furthermore, our ability to communicate our ideas effectively in written form is a very good indicator of how orderly our thinking is and if we have mastered the use of our language.

quote:
No it isn't. People who score well in English do not usually do as well in math, and vise versa. Very few people possess the complete package, or are compelled to even try.

Look, read what I wrote.

People who don't write well have not mastered the use of our language. How could it be otherwise?

People who's thought processes are disorganized would naturally have disorganized writing.

But anyway, to get into graduate school you have to take the GRE's, and to get into the better schools you have to be good at both. In fact, you have to be pretty good at both to get into graduate school at all.

I mean, there's a reason most people don't become MD's or PhD's. You have to be really smart and want to work really hard for years and years.

Most people drop out before completion of their MD and PhD programs becasue they don't have what it takes.

quote:
I hated English, but that does not mean I couldn't be good at it. Just coming into these forums has inspired me to become better at it. I hope you have noticed an improvement.

I have noticed an improvement, actually.

I am saying that a lot of Creationists are poor writers.

quote:
*correction* A lot of creationists on this board are poor writers.

Yeah, which is what I wrote in my OP.

quote:
Which has nothing to do with their intelligence.

I actually think it often does have something to do with their intelligence.

Sorry, but there's a reason people with poor writing skills can't get into Harvard.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:05 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 318 (448037)
01-11-2008 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 1:23 PM


When Taz explains something, I can understand him just fine.

quote:
Because you agree with him.

I understood everything Faith wrote very well, yet I disagreed with her rather strenuously. I read articles by conservative writers that I understand just fine, even though I disagree with nearly every sentence.

Sorry, Charlie, but I am perfectly able to understand well-written English even if I disagree with it. You can even test me if you like.

Perhaps you are projecting a bit here?

Well, I suppose that means you express yourself the least well of just about anyone on this board.

quote:
Is insulting people a part of expressing yourself well?

You missed the point again rat.

You said that Taz is a bad communicator because he blows up and gets angry.

I observed that you must be the worst communicator here (using your own rule), since you tend to blow up and get angry rather frequently.

quote:
I never claimed any different. As a matter of fact I have always expressed how frustrated I am with being able to get my thoughts across to others. Mostly to those who disagree with me. But I am not convinced it is my writing skills, or the stubbornness of others.

I think people would be much more forgiving of your lack of written clarity if you didn't work so hard to defend your poor arguments and lack of clarity, often becoming rather belligerant and obfuscatory.

quote:
All I know is there are communication gaps, and forums are pretty challenging. I mean you could go on to explain something to me, and if I just don't understand, that does not mean you didn't write it well. The same consideration needs to be taken both ways.

Maybe. On the other hand, when I go to the trouble to explain something in detail to you, but you simply brush it aside with a sarcastic "I know you are but what am I"-type dismissive one-liner instead of explaining how each of my points is in error, then I confess I tend to think you are trying to avoid addressing arguments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:23 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 93 of 318 (448373)
01-13-2008 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by nator
01-11-2008 6:14 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
Lots of people don't understand what the hell you are trying to say, rat.

Like I said, I am not convinced that it is solely my writing as much as it is ones ability to comprehend. The bible is very well written, yet most of us fail to understand it. If you disagree with me, then that will only amplify the problem. For the most part you understand me, otherwise you wouldn't even be talking to me.

I understand mike the wiz, iano, and buzsaw perfectly. Well iano sometimes speaks in code, and you have to really think about what they he is saying. doesn't mean he isn't expressing himself well.

I know some people here express themselves better than others, but that does not mean they are mis-understood, or "mangle the language."
Nosey Ned, and Molibol are some of my favorites, they express themselves in the fewest words, and only address the issue, where as you seem to constantly drift off topic, and take things out of context, which then sends the conversation off in directions. Then you accuse me of losing track of my own words, when all I am trying to too is address what you say. That never happens with the fore-mentioned people, and other people as well.

If I may assume that you are referring to me,

Well I was thinking of ringo when I wrote that, but yes you are included in that. I often find problems with your comprehension, and rrhain as well. It's only your willingness to drift off-topic and assuming attitude that does it, not your intelligence. What drives it is still unclear to me, unless it is just a hatred towards people who believe in God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 01-11-2008 6:14 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by nator, posted 01-14-2008 6:12 PM riVeRraT has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 94 of 318 (448645)
01-14-2008 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by riVeRraT
01-13-2008 7:50 AM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
Like I said, I am not convinced that it is solely my writing as much as it is ones ability to comprehend.

Rat, I have never gotten less than an A in any English class I had in school, and it was always easy for me. In seventh grade, we took achievement tests, and my reading comprehension grade level was "12th grade and above". I have always taken Advanced or College-Prep English classes all throughout high school, and got A's in them without studying much. I got a nearly perfect score on the verbal section of the SAT. When I arrived for my freshman year at college, we had the opportunity to take exams to see if we could "test out" of certain basic courses. I took the College English exam, and got a perfect score on my reading comprehension and tested out of taking the course.

I tell you all of this to try to convince you that I really don't think my reading comprehension skills are the problem here.

Really.

quote:
The bible is very well written, yet most of us fail to understand it.

The bible is not particularly well-written, Rat! The Song of Songs is kind of pretty, and Psalms is nice, but an awful lot of it is clunky and vague and mistranslated and nonsensical and dry as dust.

And besides, you aren't trying to write in flowery, poetic, melodramatic "Biblical style" are you? You're just trying to communicate in ordinary English, right?

quote:
If you disagree with me, then that will only amplify the problem. For the most part you understand me, otherwise you wouldn't even be talking to me.

As I already wrote, I disagreed with Faith very strenuously, but she was a very good writer, so I had no problem understanding her at all.

I can disagree very strongly with someone and simultaneously understand everything they write with no problem at all. I have done so many times in the past.

You often don't write clearly, and you want to blame everybody else for not understanding you.

quote:
I understand mike the wiz, iano, and buzsaw perfectly. Well iano sometimes speaks in code, and you have to really think about what they he is saying. doesn't mean he isn't expressing himself well.

"Writing in Code" = "not writing clearly". Iano writes in such a way as to produce a lot of words that don't actually relay any substantive information. In other words, he shovels a lot of bullshit.

Mike sometimes writes clearly, but other times writes muddled word salad. Buzsaw is the best of the three, it is true, but he tries to gussy up his words too much to be considered a very clear writer.

quote:
I know some people here express themselves better than others, but that does not mean they are mis-understood, or "mangle the language."

True. I don't write anywhere near as well as Ringo, Crashfrog or Omniverous, but one of those was an English major and another was a professional jounalist, so I can't feel too bad about that.

However, you do mangle the language. So does Buzsaw, and also our new friend ThreeDogs.

quote:
Nosey Ned, and Molibol are some of my favorites, they express themselves in the fewest words, and only address the issue, where as you seem to constantly drift off topic, and take things out of context, which then sends the conversation off in directions.

Yes, I admit to being bad about being off-topic. I don't think I take things out of context, though. I have never heard anybody else say that about my replies.

quote:
Then you accuse me of losing track of my own words, when all I am trying to too is address what you say. That never happens with the fore-mentioned people, and other people as well.

I've seen other people say that to you, on several occasions.

You seem to have a real problem with following analogies. You seem to not be able to see the connections for some reason, so I have mostly stopped using them in arguments with you.

quote:
Well I was thinking of ringo when I wrote that, but yes you are included in that. I often find problems with your comprehension, and rrhain as well.

It isn't a problem with my comprehension.

quote:
It's only your willingness to drift off-topic and assuming attitude that does it, not your intelligence. What drives it is still unclear to me, unless it is just a hatred towards people who believe in God.

Oh sure. The reason I can't understand you when you write poorly is because I hate people who believe in God.

That's definitely the reason.

So, how come I was always able to understand Faith, then?

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 01-13-2008 7:50 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 01-16-2008 6:56 PM nator has responded

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 2469 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 95 of 318 (449103)
01-16-2008 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


Students in fields where their endeavors are formally and logically reviewed rely on skillets which differ than those of most people. For instance, the language skill sets which are needed to impress in Performance Art in the Theater Arts Department (e.g. what color am I feeling today) is substantially different from the ones needed in epistemology.

To most people persuasive skills are far more important than logical ones. Most any occupation I can think of: lawyers, priests, reporters, politicians, businessmen, policemen, prison guards, pimps, drug sellers, authors, musicians, and actors all usually have a greater emphasis on persuasive arguments over logic ones.

At this point I would expect most reading this to wonder what any of the above has to do with language and grammar skills. I concede that clearly those skills are of value to those in the fields listed above. My point, if you’ll bear with me a bit longer, is perhaps a bit more subtle. From the perspective of the average person living in the US, persuasive activities do not require to nearly the same extent the rigid formality required by logical activities. Unless required by work or school there is little societal requirement for grammar. Of the tools people feel they need to succeed in life grammar is viewed by most as the tool of lesser value than the tool of persuasion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-28-2007 8:57 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by nator, posted 01-16-2008 10:25 PM Trae has acknowledged this reply

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 96 of 318 (449127)
01-16-2008 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by nator
01-14-2008 6:12 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
The bible is not particularly well-written, Rat! The Song of Songs is kind of pretty, and Psalms is nice, but an awful lot of it is clunky and vague and mistranslated and nonsensical and dry as dust.

I think this pretty much sums you up. Not that you are dry as dust, but your opinion of the bible speaks volumes about your comprehension.

You may have scored well in school, but I find most, if not all of your responses very biased, and prejudice towards your own personal belief's and opinions.

In other words, you are blinded by your own way of thinking. It drives your responses, and your comprehension on things. I know this, because even if I were to plainly agree with you, you would still find a reason to debate me. I have always wanted to come to this forum as another person, with a different attitude, to test just that. But I don't want to risk being kicked from the forum. In almost 4 years, I have only been officially warned once.

You often don't write clearly, and you want to blame everybody else for not understanding you.

Listen, I am all open to improving myself. You have pointed out just a few grammar errors of mine, and now I try to pay attention to them. Yet you still understood me at those times. So I give you permission to point out to me just when I am making those mistakes, and how maybe I should have worded things. Without being to critical of course.

P.S. there is no "everybody else." Only a select few.

True. I don't write anywhere near as well as Ringo, Crashfrog or Omniverous, but one of those was an English major and another was a professional jounalist, so I can't feel too bad about that.

However, you do mangle the language. So does Buzsaw, and also our new friend ThreeDogs.

All I want is to be understood. English was never my thing.

So, how come I was always able to understand Faith, then?

I don't know. It may be because she fits your description of a believer better, and you relate to her. I do not always agree with faith, hence we come from different perspectives on who and what God is. Everyone here has/had me pegged as a fundie for a long time, yet after really getting into it, they found out I am not one. That to me means that people here are prejudice. Then their writings and responses reflect that.

P.S. you seem to be understanding me perfectly well in this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by nator, posted 01-14-2008 6:12 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 01-16-2008 10:49 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 01-18-2008 5:41 AM riVeRraT has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 318 (449160)
01-16-2008 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Trae
01-16-2008 4:44 PM


quote:
Unless required by work or school there is little societal requirement for grammar. Of the tools people feel they need to succeed in life grammar is viewed by most as the tool of lesser value than the tool of persuasion.

Possibly.

Of course, I'm career retail sales and have developed some mad skillz in that arena, so I think I've got the "persuasive" thing going for me, too. :)

Of course, sales skills don't work when you argue with the customer.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Trae, posted 01-16-2008 4:44 PM Trae has acknowledged this reply

  
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 318 (449171)
01-16-2008 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by riVeRraT
01-16-2008 6:56 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
I think this pretty much sums you up. Not that you are dry as dust, but your opinion of the bible speaks volumes about your comprehension.

Hardly.

Why don't you post a passage from the Bible that you think is particularly well-written and then explain why you think that?

quote:
You may have scored well in school, but I find most, if not all of your responses very biased, and prejudice towards your own personal belief's and opinions.

Even if true, this has nothing to do with my reading comprehension.

The point is, my reading comprehension skills are probably not at fault every single time there is confusion over what you've written, rat. I was an advanced reader from quite a young age, remember. At 13, I was reading at 5 or more grade levels above most of the rest of the seventh graders in Pennsylvania.

If it is written reasonably well, I should be able to understand it reasonably well.

quote:
In other words, you are blinded by your own way of thinking.

Of course. It is our fault that a bunch of us can't understand what you are trying to say half the time.

I can't help but notice, rat, that you've dropped your "Educated people don't know how to turn a screwdriver." argument like a hot potato. Why is that? Is it because you realized that your conclusion was based upon poor logic and a failure to consider the self-selected nature of your sample; educated people with money as opposed to poor people who can't afford you?

Who is blinded now? Have a little bit of a problem admitting your error, perhaps?

quote:
It drives your responses, and your comprehension on things.

Rat, come on now. If my comprehension is wrong, then it is your job to correct me.

If, in the course of that correction, you paint yourself into a logical corner and contradict yourself, as so often happens, then who's fault is that?

So, how come I was always able to understand Faith, then?

quote:
I don't know.

I certainly do. She was a damn fine writer, that's why. Very clear.

quote:
It may be because she fits your description of a believer better, and you relate to her.

I never "related" to Faith in any way whatsoever. I never understood how she could possibly come to the conclusions she did, and her reasoning was often really ridiculous.

However, she always articulated her thoughts really well, even if I could never relate to her thought processes.

quote:
I do not always agree with faith, hence we come from different perspectives on who and what God is. Everyone here has/had me pegged as a fundie for a long time, yet after really getting into it, they found out I am not one. That to me means that people here are prejudice. Then their writings and responses reflect that.

Maybe people had you pegged as a fundie partly becasue you appeared to be a fundie. You said for a long time that you weren't, but then you would say something or express a view that influenced the rest of us to put you back in the fundie camp.

Just sayin'.

The only thing any of us have to go on here is what we read, you know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 01-16-2008 6:56 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by riVeRraT, posted 01-21-2008 9:04 AM nator has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3149 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 99 of 318 (449474)
01-17-2008 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-28-2007 8:57 PM


????????????????????????????????????
whar iv yu ecicated flok ar to eidcated too uundastand sum of us
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-28-2007 8:57 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by pelican, posted 01-19-2008 6:55 PM pelican has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1620 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 100 of 318 (449498)
01-18-2008 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by riVeRraT
01-16-2008 6:56 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
It drives your responses, and your comprehension on things. I know this, because even if I were to plainly agree with you, you would still find a reason to debate me.
Bingo!

Writing skills aren't the only barrier in this forum. Bias and prejudice can affect one's comprehension skills.

Since emotion is not visible in this type of medium, sometimes people inject their own emotions or emotions they feel the writer meant.

quote:
Everyone here has/had me pegged as a fundie for a long time, yet after really getting into it, they found out I am not one.
Oddly enough, even though this is a debate forum some have a need to attach the opposing position to the writer personally. I've also noticed that many tend to carry baggage from one thread to another and that colors their comprehension of what is written.

Each thread should be a new beginning, no baggage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 01-16-2008 6:56 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by riVeRraT, posted 01-21-2008 9:07 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

pelican
Member (Idle past 3149 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 101 of 318 (449909)
01-19-2008 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by pelican
01-17-2008 11:55 PM


Re: ????????????????????????????????????
whar iv yu ecicated flok ar to eidcated too uundastand sum of us

i unerstans yu. its two ard fr um. I will translate for you Heinrik.

Many of these posts are condescending and infer inferiority. When in fact, the organised trained mind rarely understands anything outside of it's way of thinking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 11:55 PM pelican has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 01-20-2008 7:39 AM pelican has responded
 Message 105 by molbiogirl, posted 01-20-2008 9:39 PM pelican has responded
 Message 106 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 10:32 PM pelican has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 102 of 318 (449998)
01-20-2008 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by pelican
01-19-2008 6:55 PM


Re: ????????????????????????????????????
quote:
When in fact, the organised trained mind rarely understands anything outside of it's way of thinking.

That's crap, I do believe.

Care to provide examples, or any sort of proof for this claim?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by pelican, posted 01-19-2008 6:55 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by pelican, posted 01-20-2008 8:16 AM nator has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3149 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 103 of 318 (450006)
01-20-2008 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by nator
01-20-2008 7:39 AM


nator writes:

That's crap, I do believe.

Here's the example you asked for. Do you require any more proof?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 01-20-2008 7:39 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by nator, posted 01-20-2008 9:51 AM pelican has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 318 (450018)
01-20-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by pelican
01-20-2008 8:16 AM


Yes, I do require more.

Do not confuse lack of agreement with lack of understanding.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by pelican, posted 01-20-2008 8:16 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 1:56 AM nator has not yet responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 105 of 318 (450123)
01-20-2008 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by pelican
01-19-2008 6:55 PM


Many of these posts are condescending and infer inferiority.

Awfully hard to avoid when debating a creo. Abysmal ignorance of even basic biology (Juggs recently insisted that building a single protein requires all 20 amino acids!) is a goldmine to the sarcastic among us.

When in fact, the organised trained mind rarely understands anything outside of it's way of thinking.

What on earth are you talking about? I am trained in biochemistry and perfectly capable of informed political discussion. I am trained in video production and perfectly capable of discussing the finer points of sculpture.

Seriously, dameeva. You've over reached here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by pelican, posted 01-19-2008 6:55 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 2:19 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded
 Message 149 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 8:24 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

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